Borsalino

[Razzman]

Purchased this hat a couple of months ago. Perhaps a fellow lounger could place the age. I have a couple of pics, more if necessary.

The hat liner has printed Borsalino made in Italy, it also says original house founded in 1857.

 

[Visigoth]

I'm guessing thirties -- no later than the forties. It's very similar to my early thirties Borsos. Does it have a serial number beneath the sweat?

 

[Razzman]

Oops!:eusa_doh: It does, forgot to include it before. It has the blue logo in the crowns inner lining as you can see. It says Qualita Superiore Alessandria Italia Marca Depositata Made In Italy.
On the leather sweatband It says Borsalino Made in Italy Original House Founded in 1857.
Under the sweatband there is a paper tag with the numbers 3K 868 18895 A and the names Guiaccio
C. Cozion and Ludosca?

I talked with Brad Bowers and he thought possibly 40's also.

 

[Visigoth]

What kind of bash is it? C-crown? (Lovely hat, btw.)

 

[SHARPETOYS]

Very nice hat....

Ok!! Lets see you in the hat...

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I'm going with mid-40s, at the earliest. Maybe even 50s. That thin ribbon, i have not seen earlier than the 40s, though i may be way wrong.

I say not 30s because the 30s borsalinos that i've seen have the sweatband stitched directly to the felt, not like yours onto the grey piece behind the brown. Is there a cork-like segment between the sweat and the felt at the front? Again, the earlier borsas i've seen have this. later ones don't ...

Nice hat ... looks a bit like a stratoliner. Could be a clone?

bk

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I see it's an original house number. Does it have written anywhere "Reg. U.S. Pat. Off."?

I'm devising a scheme by which Reg. U.S. Pat. Off. is one of the best indicators of pre-50s-ness of american apparel. Everything i have that is 30s/40s has Reg U.S. Pat. Off. written somewhere on it. Nothing 50s has this mark.

bk

 

[Art Fawcett]

Razz, I'm with Baron on the dating. I actually think it's later, 50s, fo rthe same reason as BK. This is a reeded sweat that Borsalino shunned in the earlier years preferring a whip stitched leather. Now there ARE exceptions and this hat could have been renovated by someone licensed to use replacement Borso leathers which is still very possible today. One that comes to mind is Pauls Hat Works in SF. I'm a little fuzzy on which of the numbers signify the date but it is either 1968 or 1995 ( I think '68). You can actually still get this style from Borso I believe. Maybe Besdor can answer this more completely.

 

[DOUGLAS]

Beautiful Razzman!!

 

[squid]

Razz, I'm with Baron on the dating. I actually think it's later, 50s, fo rthe same reason as BK. This is a reeded sweat that Borsalino shunned in the earlier years preferring a whip stitched leather. Now there ARE exceptions and this hat could have been renovated by someone licensed to use replacement Borso leathers which is still very possible today. One that comes to mind is Pauls Hat Works in SF. I'm a little fuzzy on which of the numbers signify the date but it is either 1968 or 1995 ( I think '68). You can actually still get this style from Borso I believe. Maybe Besdor can answer this more completely.

Around what year did they start reeding the sweatbands?

 

[Art Fawcett]

This is purely a guess Squid, but is seems that I have seen reeded sweats more from the '60s on.
note, I am speaking of Borsalino only. Other makers used reeds since the teens.

 

[Razzman]

Nothing about "Reg. U.S. Pat. Off."
Thanks everyone for all the information.
I would like to hear Besdor's take on this hat.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Funnily enough i just got an almost identical hat in the mail. Different liner logo, and with Borsalino numbers that date it to 1956.

bk

 

[Visigoth]

I have two Borsalinos, reliably dated to the thirties, with reeded sweats. Although check out this thread:

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=3314&highlight=logos

Yours seems the same as hat #6, about which James posted: "I have one of number 6 and the date on the box it was shipped in is 1957."

 

[Visigoth]

Once again: calling Besdor! We desperately need photos of your liner collection... the FL info on Borso dating is all over the map, and much of it contradictory.

One thing that would be nice to establish: sizing labels. I've seen white cloth, with a blue number inside a double blue rectangle -- which I *think* is forties. Then there's the white cardboard, with a white number inside a filled red ellipse -- thirties? Then the combined Eulan Bayer size tag, in black cloth -- fifties to seventies?

(The red ellipse I've seen is accompanied by a separate circular cardboard Eulan Bayer tag.)

Another useful thing to know would be when Borsalino ditched the early European sizing system (with smaller number, like 4 1/2).

 

[squid]

That's a nice hat. There is another one up on ebay right now. The description even states it has "Reg U.S. Pat. Off." It's a bit out of my price range right now though.

I would love to see something on Borsalino size tags. I've just bought one with the cloth white/blue tag.

 

[jamespowers]

I have two Borsalinos, reliably dated to the thirties, with reeded sweats. Although check out this thread:

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=3314&highlight=logos

Yours seems the same as hat #6, about which James posted: "I have one of number 6 and the date on the box it was shipped in is 1957."

That is indeed true but look at the picture of the sweatband in number six. It is sewn directly onto the felt without the reed. the date on my box helped me date the hat---at least when it was first sold.
Also notice the absence of the patent office reference on the liner as bk pointed out earlier. I agree with BK and Art on this.

Regards to all,

J

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Note this early borsa with the sweat directly stitched onto the felt (the mongrel with the Mallory liner with 1935 date). No Reg. U.S. Pat. Off. since it wasn't made for the American market:

And this one:

bk

 

[jamespowers]

That sweat from 1935 is a good example to go forward with. That Mallory liner in it was really strange. [huh]

Regards,

J