Best cross zip or double rider jacket

[masonship]

Hello all,

New to this website and I don’t know how I lived so long without it. Y’all are making me go down some deep rabbit holes.

I did search for an answer on this topic, but didn’t find quite what I’m looking for. I’m looking to get my first black cross zip double riders jacket. Used or new, budget between $700-$2k. I’m seeing a lot of brands discussed, but I would love some opinions on best fit, leather, craftsmanship, value retention, etc. I’ve primarily been looking at Y’2 and Schott so far, but it seems like there’s so many smaller awesome brands out there. Which ones should I be looking at?!

Thanks!

 

[Bennarion]

If you have the opportunity to try on this jacket somewhere, start with this

Buying a jacket online without experience and having it fit you is like hitting the jackpot

 

[navetsea]

there is no "the best" or "the one" there is only jackets that fits you best, so you have to try perhaps one time if you know your measurement well or several time if you don't know your measurement well, if you find that jacket, then wear that jacket all the time until it becomes The One, it's a self fulfilling prophecy, because you can't have that much connection to something unless you wear it all the time.

if you keep looking out then you will end up with many pieces but without no special connection to any

 

[Peter Mackin]

So you don't want a real motorcycle jacket just one that looks the part? If that the case just buy the one you like best.iom if you want the very best of both worlds just buy a vanson model E,it's the real deal.

 

[navetsea]

I think you need to be aware crosszip jacket mostly come with dangling belt, do you realistically wear it half zipped all the time or do you wear it mostly open, dangling belt has some cons to for practical reason, it can scratch on things, if you move too frantically it can bump on things or to little kids, but to me the dangling belt looks cool, however if the cons outweight the coolness then perhaps you need one with removable belt or aviator jacket that is usually without belt despite similarly crosszipped.

 

[Peter Mackin]

That's 100% correct, and why i never, never wear a belt on my jackets if I'm anywhere near the bike.a mistake I made over 50years ago taught me that.

 

[dannyk]

Sounds like you really need to consider what you’re after. If you actually ride a motorcycle modern day tech and armor can’t be beat. It’s about safety and comfort. If you want a middle ground brands like Vanson are top tier. . They’ve always prioritized making cool looking jackets that can still be worn on a bike. Won’t be as safe as modern day safety gear ( they do make that as well) but I’m talking traditional just leather badass bike focused jackets. Schott can’t be beat for the look. It’s a classic name and they make one of the coolest looking iconic jackets. But they don’t offer customization, they don’t offer a lot of the cooler leathers that exist these days, or different zippers and buttons you can get. The Japanese brands offer more interesting leathers, super accurate stitching, more styles even within one style. So much variety within crosszips, and a lot are based on vintage styles. They offer almost no safety or protection. Of course there are exceptions but most are meant for the super cool looking aesthetic and are not the most protective or comfortable on a bike or in a bar fight or zombie apocalypse haha. Yet since a lot are based on classic American and British styles you can also look at the vintage market. Some are crazy expensive the market has wild ups and downs and ups again over the last 15 or so years. Yet you can still find steals out there. Check the finds and deals page right here on TFL. Members check out eBay, Aliexpress, rakuten, eBay Japan etc…and post good deals they find.

So having even said you want a crosszip….doesnt really narrow it down. You have a healthy budget to spend which is good….but there’s no best. No hands down best overall brand or style. Its priorities. Do you want laser focused cutting and stitching, the coolest looking leather, the heaviest most protective leather, iconic silhouette, something that will look new forever, a quick fading quick breaking in look, a vintage rock n roll look….what are your priorities? If you can come back and list your top 3-4 priorities, needs vs wants the people here are incredibly knowledgeable and helpful. No one will tell you what the “best” is though; because we’ve all realized there isn’t one. Seriously there isn’t. We all have different favorites and values. But we can help you decide on what we think you’re looking for or what we think fits your wishlist best. We Just need a lot more details!

 

[The Lost Cowboy]

Hello all,

New to this website and I don’t know how I lived so long without it. Y’all are making me go down some deep rabbit holes.

I did search for an answer on this topic, but didn’t find quite what I’m looking for. I’m looking to get my first black cross zip double riders jacket. Used or new, budget between $700-$2k. I’m seeing a lot of brands discussed, but I would love some opinions on best fit, leather, craftsmanship, value retention, etc. I’ve primarily been looking at Y’2 and Schott so far, but it seems like there’s so many smaller awesome brands out there. Which ones should I be looking at?!

Thanks!

My only advice is to save your budget and don't blow it all in one place. The chances of getting "the one" the first time out are slim. If you are discerning, you will get one and then realize that you actually wanted a slightly different pattern (for example, a shorter or a longer torso, a different back construct, a different zipper set up, etc).

I'd get something of good quality but used off eBay or from TFL classifieds. $300-400 will get you a good quality used jacket; if it's what you want, then you are golden, but if it's not quite right, you still have options.

Schott 613, Vanson E, classic Cal or Al CHP - all of these and many more would make great first crosszips (my first one was a Sears Leathershop steerhide for $90 and my second was a 50s Windward for $350 and my third was a used Lost Worlds Trojan for $700. Those three have pretty much scratched my crosszip itch).

 

[Will Zach]

I would say a mint used Lost Worlds Trojan (or another Lost Worlds crosszip) would be your sweet spot. Lost Worlds can't be beat on build quality and quality of their horsehide. The fact that it would be used comes with a benefit of the jacket being broken in - LW can be very stiff when new. And lower price, of course. New LW will run around $2.5k; you can find a mint one for half that (or less) if you are patient.

 

[Will Zach]

Having mentioned Lost Worlds, here's an essay by the LW owner Stuart Clurman which eloquently explains the philosophy behind his work (Stu has a PhD in English Literature):

"On this site we mention "collectors" from time to time, because that's where we began (ages ago). One tenet of the "collector mentality" is important to what we do -- many things that used to be are better than many things that are. This may surprise those who think technology always a step forward. Yet, conversely, not all things in the past are better of course. That's where LOST WORLDS comes in.

We're really gratified when someone who doesn't collect experiences LOST WORLDS gear -- the vast majority of our customers -- someone who just craves an amazing American leather jacket or rides devotedly and needs one. There are still discriminating guys who appreciate artisan caliber quality and care made in USA. These customers give us greater satisfaction, coming without presuppositions -- only sometimes with appropriate wariness, for who among us hasn't been burned by spurious marketing claims and lies, or succumbed to the base manipulations of internet shills and self-appointed "experts?" The Internet facilitates fraud. (This website has been pillaged and plagiarized by ripoff mfgs. and eBay ragpickers for years.)

Throughout we mention matters of history, materials, tradition and manufacturing -- set against the background of the now dinosaur status of American masculinity, rendered toothless by the brainwashing of political correctness. Quality, workmanship and attention to function and detail in clothing were infinitely more important in the past than now. The reasons, myriad, and placed in current perspective, demoralizing. Briefly, from the Great Depression until the 1960s people were grateful for employment and self-motivated to do a good job. Employment was a privilege. Now it's a right -- and we have Homer Simpson at the Springfield Nuclear Plant -- D'oh! The awful legacy of passive middle class surrender to and empowerment of the deadbeat and un-American ... the listless, anomic, unshaven, sandaled slacker/slob. The bubble baby "victim" of absent parenting, tradition, values. The empowerment of ignorance.

Back to sanity -- first and second generation Americans of European extraction principally constituted the old garment work force, working for factory owners of shared cultural and religious backgrounds with common goals, experiences and values. By necessity having often made and mended their own clothing, workers routinely applied this expertise. Back then every mom sewed. Fashion was the concern of a small rich elite. Real America sought durability; one couldn't easily afford to replace worn or damaged clothing until the two decades of runaway prosperity following WWII. Quality was a given, not, as today, the rarest exception. The old class system, so despised by current victim culture, provided upward goals towards refinement, modesty and education. Now the middle and lower classes share the same nosebleed-inducing cultural rung, defined by accumulation and vulgarity, rank exhibitionism. Empty barrels make the most noise.

Specialist apparel like leather motorcycle and rugged wear was made to do things in, not the fashion and rebel-without-a-clue (to quote Tom Petty) image it later became. Original motorcycle and outdoor clothing was functional, often (but not always) overbuilt and necessary. The tide began downturning with THE WILD ONE (1954) with Marlon Brando -- the popular culture watershed first to connect motorcycle gear to postwar disenchantment and rebellion.

Compare, similarly, old and new denim jeans -- in the 1950s the concept of pre-washed, pre-broken in jeans would've been ludicrous, outside the mindset. Remnants of the old pioneer ethic, though fast disappearing, still resounded, if faintly: you broke in work clothing like your forebears had broken horses and soil.

A kind of suicidal infantilism has mortally stricken America: now everything must be pre-chewed, pre-washed. (In the same way, politically correct language is sanitized pre-thought, viz. the identical descriptions of Raymond Shaw by the brainwashed GIs in The Manchurian Candidate (1962).) We recoil when we see someone on an expensive Harley or restored Indian in some pre-distressed, baby soft, logo-driven alleged motorcycle jacket. The image HD covets? Nope, the $$$. Like pre-aged Gibson Les Paul guitars for the wannabe legions. Lord! But the toothless need strained food.

Behold LOST WORLDS jackets -- unaged, tough as nails, uncompromising, routinely protecting riders from serious injury. Our testimonials from those forced under duress to test our claims are astonishing and fill us with pride. A flimsy (and often not inexpensive) import keep you in one piece? Right, call us from the ER, if your arms work, unless the sacred logo's protected you -- the scarab of uninformed (yet uniform) materialism! America today is sickeningly about image -- and the ability to afford an image, a label -- rather than substance. Life-As-Acting-Class -- a definition of current America. Carapace Culture.

We digress (again). The classic jackets we recreate are royally superior in design, materials and construction. Arising from a lost world where vacuous Attitude didn't rule, where Men still walked the earth, their purposefulness, expressed in functional detail and faultless craft, startles. They're heavy, demand respect, a little breaking-in to show who's boss. They express a truth, an honesty, not a fashion flavor choice for brain-dead clone masses which put on different egos according to the day of the week. (Yet which are, scarily, all the same ego, expressed in the repugnant "Have a nice day!" Consider how in current parlance "nice" replaces "good." Good is a a judgment word -- remember, don't judge.)

Forcefully no-nonsense, no-frills honest, the old motorcycle, flight and rugged outerwear is, unsurprisingly, extraordinary looking, originating before the hype, commercialization, ruin, before the wanabes and accountants. Authenticity -- the criterion of value and of beauty too. In things and people. Value and beauty are interchangeable. The inauthentic has no value. (Didn't Keats write, "Truth is beauty, beauty truth...."?) And the inauthentic is, as usual, the majority. Scary. Deadly. But true. The new Holy Trinity for the masses: breed, eat, defecate.

LOST WORLDS jackets are technically reproductions but more accurately offspring of The Great Tradition. Not dry, academic fossil recreations of interest to but a few. Instead, rediscoveries, excavated Troys of exciting, vibrant 100% American individualistic designs matchless in art, spirit and beauty, wholly unrelated to what's out there masquerading as quality behind hyped fashion labels and invented designers, some of whom are even given wives and families for image.

American marketing preaches sameness and uniformity as desirable -- the opposite of the LOST WORLDS philosophy. If everyone's the same, unoriginal, everyone wants the same crap. The imagination-killing myth of "equality." Who ever wanted to grow up to be a Xerox when he was a little kid? Now, most. Equal is the most insidiously totalitarian word there is, substituting quantity for quality. It's so much easier to oppress and slaughter people if just numbers ("You're one of THEM, not one of US." Hi, visit wonderful, neighborly Rwanda, drop in on friendly Raqqa!"). True quality is unique, incalculable. People of quality are unequal -- single gems incapable of duplication. They indicate the richness, variety, not sameness.

Our products aren't "the same things." They're not for those who value quantity over quality. They arise from the heart, not calculator. They provoke reaction. They inspire devotion. They link to important moments. They widen one's boundaries of self, experience and knowledge."

 

[El Marro]

^^^^^^
Every time I read the ravings of Stuart Clurman I think “that man is batsh#t crazy!”
he does make a nice jacket though.

 

[Will Zach]

^^^^^^
Every time I read the ravings of Stuart Clurman I think “that man is batsh#t crazy!”
he does make a nice jacket though.

He's channeling his rage the right way!

 

[navetsea]

Having mentioned Lost Worlds, here's an essay by the LW owner Stuart Clurman which eloquently explains the philosophy behind his work (Stu has a PhD in English Literature):

"On this site we mention "collectors" from time to time, because that's where we began (ages ago). One tenet of the "collector mentality" is important to what we do -- many things that used to be are better than many things that are. This may surprise those who think technology always a step forward. Yet, conversely, not all things in the past are better of course. That's where LOST WORLDS comes in.

We're really gratified when someone who doesn't collect experiences LOST WORLDS gear -- the vast majority of our customers -- someone who just craves an amazing American leather jacket or rides devotedly and needs one. There are still discriminating guys who appreciate artisan caliber quality and care made in USA. These customers give us greater satisfaction, coming without presuppositions -- only sometimes with appropriate wariness, for who among us hasn't been burned by spurious marketing claims and lies, or succumbed to the base manipulations of internet shills and self-appointed "experts?" The Internet facilitates fraud. (This website has been pillaged and plagiarized by ripoff mfgs. and eBay ragpickers for years.)

Throughout we mention matters of history, materials, tradition and manufacturing -- set against the background of the now dinosaur status of American masculinity, rendered toothless by the brainwashing of political correctness. Quality, workmanship and attention to function and detail in clothing were infinitely more important in the past than now. The reasons, myriad, and placed in current perspective, demoralizing. Briefly, from the Great Depression until the 1960s people were grateful for employment and self-motivated to do a good job. Employment was a privilege. Now it's a right -- and we have Homer Simpson at the Springfield Nuclear Plant -- D'oh! The awful legacy of passive middle class surrender to and empowerment of the deadbeat and un-American ... the listless, anomic, unshaven, sandaled slacker/slob. The bubble baby "victim" of absent parenting, tradition, values. The empowerment of ignorance.

Back to sanity -- first and second generation Americans of European extraction principally constituted the old garment work force, working for factory owners of shared cultural and religious backgrounds with common goals, experiences and values. By necessity having often made and mended their own clothing, workers routinely applied this expertise. Back then every mom sewed. Fashion was the concern of a small rich elite. Real America sought durability; one couldn't easily afford to replace worn or damaged clothing until the two decades of runaway prosperity following WWII. Quality was a given, not, as today, the rarest exception. The old class system, so despised by current victim culture, provided upward goals towards refinement, modesty and education. Now the middle and lower classes share the same nosebleed-inducing cultural rung, defined by accumulation and vulgarity, rank exhibitionism. Empty barrels make the most noise.

Specialist apparel like leather motorcycle and rugged wear was made to do things in, not the fashion and rebel-without-a-clue (to quote Tom Petty) image it later became. Original motorcycle and outdoor clothing was functional, often (but not always) overbuilt and necessary. The tide began downturning with THE WILD ONE (1954) with Marlon Brando -- the popular culture watershed first to connect motorcycle gear to postwar disenchantment and rebellion.

Compare, similarly, old and new denim jeans -- in the 1950s the concept of pre-washed, pre-broken in jeans would've been ludicrous, outside the mindset. Remnants of the old pioneer ethic, though fast disappearing, still resounded, if faintly: you broke in work clothing like your forebears had broken horses and soil.

A kind of suicidal infantilism has mortally stricken America: now everything must be pre-chewed, pre-washed. (In the same way, politically correct language is sanitized pre-thought, viz. the identical descriptions of Raymond Shaw by the brainwashed GIs in The Manchurian Candidate (1962).) We recoil when we see someone on an expensive Harley or restored Indian in some pre-distressed, baby soft, logo-driven alleged motorcycle jacket. The image HD covets? Nope, the $$$. Like pre-aged Gibson Les Paul guitars for the wannabe legions. Lord! But the toothless need strained food.

Behold LOST WORLDS jackets -- unaged, tough as nails, uncompromising, routinely protecting riders from serious injury. Our testimonials from those forced under duress to test our claims are astonishing and fill us with pride. A flimsy (and often not inexpensive) import keep you in one piece? Right, call us from the ER, if your arms work, unless the sacred logo's protected you -- the scarab of uninformed (yet uniform) materialism! America today is sickeningly about image -- and the ability to afford an image, a label -- rather than substance. Life-As-Acting-Class -- a definition of current America. Carapace Culture.

We digress (again). The classic jackets we recreate are royally superior in design, materials and construction. Arising from a lost world where vacuous Attitude didn't rule, where Men still walked the earth, their purposefulness, expressed in functional detail and faultless craft, startles. They're heavy, demand respect, a little breaking-in to show who's boss. They express a truth, an honesty, not a fashion flavor choice for brain-dead clone masses which put on different egos according to the day of the week. (Yet which are, scarily, all the same ego, expressed in the repugnant "Have a nice day!" Consider how in current parlance "nice" replaces "good." Good is a a judgment word -- remember, don't judge.)

Forcefully no-nonsense, no-frills honest, the old motorcycle, flight and rugged outerwear is, unsurprisingly, extraordinary looking, originating before the hype, commercialization, ruin, before the wanabes and accountants. Authenticity -- the criterion of value and of beauty too. In things and people. Value and beauty are interchangeable. The inauthentic has no value. (Didn't Keats write, "Truth is beauty, beauty truth...."?) And the inauthentic is, as usual, the majority. Scary. Deadly. But true. The new Holy Trinity for the masses: breed, eat, defecate.

LOST WORLDS jackets are technically reproductions but more accurately offspring of The Great Tradition. Not dry, academic fossil recreations of interest to but a few. Instead, rediscoveries, excavated Troys of exciting, vibrant 100% American individualistic designs matchless in art, spirit and beauty, wholly unrelated to what's out there masquerading as quality behind hyped fashion labels and invented designers, some of whom are even given wives and families for image.

American marketing preaches sameness and uniformity as desirable -- the opposite of the LOST WORLDS philosophy. If everyone's the same, unoriginal, everyone wants the same crap. The imagination-killing myth of "equality." Who ever wanted to grow up to be a Xerox when he was a little kid? Now, most. Equal is the most insidiously totalitarian word there is, substituting quantity for quality. It's so much easier to oppress and slaughter people if just numbers ("You're one of THEM, not one of US." Hi, visit wonderful, neighborly Rwanda, drop in on friendly Raqqa!"). True quality is unique, incalculable. People of quality are unequal -- single gems incapable of duplication. They indicate the richness, variety, not sameness.

Our products aren't "the same things." They're not for those who value quantity over quality. They arise from the heart, not calculator. They provoke reaction. They inspire devotion. They link to important moments. They widen one's boundaries of self, experience and knowledge."

I'm amazed he can make straight pattern, from his train of thought I imagine he would start planning to make a crosszip and then finished with a car coat

 

[The Lost Cowboy]

I'm amazed he can make straight pattern, from his train of thought I imagine he would start planning to make a crosszip and then finished with a car coat

^^^^^^
Every time I read the ravings of Stuart Clurman I think “that man is batsh#t crazy!”
he does make a nice jacket though.

Stu's essay is very cogent. There is a clear thesis statement and everything that follows after it supports and develops the idea.

Here is the thesis:
'One tenet of the "collector mentality" is important to what we do -- many things that used to be are better than many things that are.'

He spends the rest of the essay telling us why he believes this and why it is important to LW. You may not agree, but this is not a rambling sack of inanity.

I'd hate for this thread to devolve into another "let's bash Stu because he is so damn politically incorrect we can't stand him" thread. But whatever. I agree with him for the most part and respect him for standing by his position; but even if I didn't, I could still see that his writing is lucid and well developed.

 

[Madhouse27]

I think instead of attempting a challenging “one and done and approach”, I’d embrace the journey and start with a used Schott 613 or 618 for $350 on eBay. This would help you determine if this style is right for you and start helping you to get dialed in on sizing and how the jacket’s measurements correspond to your own. You might have to do a few catch and releases on your way to an ideal fit but that’s part of the fun.

 

[Xysterz]

If you live near a store that sells quality jackets, that would be a place to start and go try on a couple.
A used Schott is not a bad idea either. But beware, a lot of the ones on eBay from Japan are pretty old; which is not a bad thing at all, but they will have a slightly different cut and fit.
@Madhouse27 I'm seeing more like $500 on eBay, at least for a decent one that's not a scam.

 

[Will Zach]

If you are a bigger guy get this directly from Stu and be done:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/3959876355...uid=Wqf9-B18Rf-&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

 

[bigmanbigtruck]

^^^^^^
Every time I read the ravings of Stuart Clurman I think “that man is batsh#t crazy!”
he does make a nice jacket though.

As long he keeps making nice jackets, I'm in.
And behind the ravings (or brand statement depending on how you want to look at it), once you get to talk to him about jackets... it's a totally different vibe

 

[Madhouse27]

If you live near a store that sells quality jackets, that would be a place to start and go try on a couple.
A used Schott is not a bad idea either. But beware, a lot of the ones on eBay from Japan are pretty old; which is not a bad thing at all, but they will have a slightly different cut and fit.
@Madhouse27 I'm seeing more like $500 on eBay, at least for a decent one that's not a scam.

I have one coming on Monday that was around $200. I just got my 1099-k form from eBay. I think I bought and sold around 10 Perfectos last year, most in the $250-$400 range and none had any sizing variations beyond slight tweaks to the patterns over the years and maybe a bit of stretching/shrinking. Maybe I’ve just been lucky but I usually buy from sellers with decent measurements and don’t buy any of them from Japan. I’ll stand by my comment that an affordable Schott on eBay is a great place to start a cross zip journey.

 

[navetsea]

Stu's essay is very cogent. There is a clear thesis statement and everything that follows after it supports and develops the idea.

Here is the thesis:
'One tenet of the "collector mentality" is important to what we do -- many things that used to be are better than many things that are.'

He spends the rest of the essay telling us why he believes this and why it is important to LW. You may not agree, but this is not a rambling sack of inanity.

I'd hate for this thread to devolve into another "let's bash Stu because he is so damn politically incorrect we can't stand him" thread. But whatever. I agree with him for the most part and respect him for standing by his position; but even if I didn't, I could still see that his writing is lucid and well developed.

one doesn't need to mock the entire generation of currently living human being just to say he makes good quality jackets