Beaver X Question

[Atticus Finch]

Hi Folks,

I'm new to the world of hats (other than the $3.59 blaze orange hat that I once wore quail hunting). I have recently ordered a new Open Road which is 4X beaver. I have noticed that ORs are sometimes on e-bay described as seven X, three X and, like mine, four X beaver. I have only a loose notion of what "X" means and, until recently, had no clue that a particular hat model would be available in more than one "X value". I'm guessing that it has something to do with the quality of the beaver felt from which the hat is made, but I may be wrong.

I feel like somewhere on this forum there is already a discussion about what "X" means in the hat world but I'm not sure where to find it. Could someone point me to that thread? If not, could someone help understand what I need to know about the Xs in my new OR?

Thanks in advance,

Atticus

 

[SHARPETOYS]

New Stetson's

The modern Stetson of today 3X, 4X has no beaver at all just rabbitt fur felt.

It's unfortunate, but the X's marked in most people’s hats don't really mean much anymore. In a simpler time they did, but the standard became corrupt and now it's pretty hard to take to the bank.
The quality of materials in a hat are measured, in part, by how much beaver is in the mix. Back in the day when trappers began trading their beaver pelts to the eastern markets, the higher the quality pelts received more X's (and more dollars). This, in turn, was used in grading the quality of hats.

In 1940 a 5X hat was of high quality and cost $50.00, $5.00 per X. A 10X hat was 100% beaver and cost $100.00.

Well, the less scrupulous folks in the hat industry saw an opportunity.

By the late 1960's the X's were going higher and the quality was going lower. Now, you can buy a 100X, 200X, or even a 500X. Some of the “big boys” offer a 1000 X— and it may not even be 100% pure beaver.

Beaver is the best quality hair/fur for hats — not the cheapest. Beaver hats are thinner, lighter weight, more weather resistant and durable. They last longer, clean up better and hold their shape better. Anytime you take beaver out of a hat and put in any other type of hair (even cashmere) you lower the quality.

Today's X's in hats aren't standardized — one company's 20X could be the same as another companies 5X.

 

[epic610]

sharptoys...

my open road says " 4 X Beaver" on the leather band. is it beaver or not ....or a blend?

 

[Atticus Finch]

X Quality

Thanks Sharpetoys,

That all makes sense. I was wondering how Stetson could sell an Open Road which is described as "4X beaver quality" for $139.00 when Texas Hatters wants $350.00 for a beaver blend. The answer is that "beaver quality" does not translate to beaver fur. It translates to rabbit fur. Texas Hatters, on the other hand, actually puts beaver fur in their Statesman. That is unless one opts for the rabbit fur version---which they describe as being made from rabbit fur and sell for $200.00 less.

While I am still excited about my Open Road---after all, I've wanted one for twenty five years---Texas Hatters' stock just went way up in my estimation. While Stetson's stamping "beaver quality" on a rabbit fur hat is not overtly deceptive, to me it doesn't miss that mark by much.

Atticus.

 

[jpdesign]

This is pretaining to major labels. ie Stetson, Resistol, Bailey.

2x = wool
3x = rabbit or buffalo
4-7x= a touch of beaver
8-15x = 10 - 25% beaver the rest is rabbit
20x = 50% beaver
30x = 60 - 75% beaver
100x = 100% beaver

Bailey - 200x = beaver and cashmere blend
Stetson - 200x = pure beaver, better jewelery
Stetson - 500x = Beaver and Mink blend
Stetson - 1000x = Beaver and chinchillla blend
Resistol - Touch Of Mink = beaver and mink blend
Resistol - Double Eagle = bits and pieces hat. Take a sheet of plywood. Cuts from the hide that are near the feet, head, and center of the belly(the absolute finest hairs) get stapled to the board. They are saved until there is enough to make a hat body.

This is for hats made with in the last couple of years and into this fall.

 

[Russ]

Good question

I had been meaning to ask this for some time. My Miller hat bought new two years ago says 6X Beaver. Does anyone have a clue as to Miller standards? I'm just curious if there is really a beaver lurking among the animals on my head, and if so, is he a minority up there or what.

 

[jpdesign]

if there is, then yes it is in the extreme minority.

 

[Old Timer]

Biltmore and Beaver Brand Fedoras

Does anybody know the "X system" for modern Biltmores and Beaver Brand Fedoras?

 

[Magus]

Ok...Based on this thread I have a specific question. I have a western Stetson that I bought in 1987. It is marked "4X Beaver" (not beaver quality or the like) How much of it is beaver and how much is not? (any close guesses would be great.

Thanks gang,
M

 

[mthatter]

erased by mt

 

[Fedora]

Stetson - 500x = Beaver and Mink blend
Stetson - 1000x = Beaver and chinchillla blend
Resistol - Touch Of Mink = beaver and mink blend

I wonder if these exotic blends are just a way to charge more? If one is to believe what the hat industry traditionally has held to be the best fur to use, i.e. beaver, would not adding these other furs just be a marketing ploy? I am asking here, as I have never owned a beaver/chinchilla hat. My dad raised Chinchillas back in the late 60's but we were told they were used to make coats and jackets. Yeah, I know that it is common for felt producers to use the scraps left over from the furriers, and Serratelli used to be in this business. But, what does the addition of the mink and or chinchilla do to increase the quality of the beaver felt? Curious minds want to know. Any thoughts on this John? You are an honest hatter whose fine hats speak for themselves, and whose opinion should be given great respect and weight. To argue with a guy with your experience would be rather stupid, especially if it comes from someone who only wears hats. fftopic: Fedora

 

[mthatter]

erased by mt

 

[jpdesign]

In the past couple of years I have asked this question of multiple sales rep from each company. These are basically averages of the answeres I got, and these are the most possible blends. I was told it really depends a good deal on what year you buy you hat on what blend you get.
To go to the fewest possible blends(and in most years more likely)

2x though 7x stay the same. As always 4x - 7x are the same body. I have been told this straight out.

8x through 20x could be the same body.
A 20x is consistantly a 50/50 blend. so that would mean that an 8 or 10 would be a 50/50 also, just don't make the cut.

30x - 100x are the same bodies. same as an 8, the 30 is a pure beaver body that just doesn't make it as far as quality.

That would make three qualities of beaver blends. The 3x rabbit felt I have not seen in a couple of years, but they are making the 3x buffalo currently and the 2x wool. through in your exotics, which only get made when ordered, that makes 7, two of which are only made if they are ordered.

One thing I was told at one point was that they do make some 8 - 10x bodies, but they also mix in 20x bodies that aren't quite up to snuff. and the same fo 30x bodies. It just depends on how many they have ordered each year, as stores place there fall orders in february and the bodies are made up to the order. that would mean if not a lot of 8, 10, or 30 x's were ordered it would not be cost efective to make those bodies that year and they would just use the higher quality bodies to fill the orders. I know that one year at Peters Bros. we got in an entire order of 30 natural Stetsons that were made with 100x bodies.

As far as the exotics, yes, beaver is the best over all fiber to make felt for hats. but that doesn't mean it is the softest. While an exotic blend may not make a hat more durable, it can make it softer to the touch, people's jaws drop when they feel my chinchilla fedora. They are just for status, but so is a $1,400 kangol. And most of the exotic blends have hand made jewelry, a solid gold with diamonds in the case of the 1000x, and custom boxes, hand tooled leather specific to each hat. There is also that the furs cost more than a beaver. Are they worth the cost of the exotic blend? For a quality versus cost point, no. For a status point, or if you want the softest hat you can possible get and price is no object, yes. I won't be trying to make a line of them any time soon, but I am going to try to be able to get them should one of my customers want something special.

Jimmy

 

[riccardo]

Hats compare.

Hi to all,
it's very easy to understand what beaver means in quality for an hat.
I've a 7x OR vintage, its felt is very thin, lightweight, smooth very smooth, soft and fresh.
I've another western 3x beaver, no vintage. It is very thick, hard, lesser weight than the vintage one.
It is how to compare silk and cardboard.
...now I'm able to understand...

Best regards.
Riccardo.

 

[fedoralover]

It's threads like this that make loungers the most informed hat wearers and buyers in the world. Much thanks to you hatters that are willing to share such insider knowledge with the rest of us.

fedoralover

 

[Fedora]

The X ratings are a joke today,

Yeah, probably the most mis-used term out there. Too bad the hat industry does not try to come up with standards on what the x means, other than the more x's willy nilly assigned to the hat, the more you pay for it. I like the idea of just taking it up to the 10x rating, like the original Stetson folks did. Each x would represent 10 per cent beaver content. So, for your average dress felt,for the guys who dig the blends, you could have use the 1x to 3x, mixing in the proper amounts to add some good fur to the rabbit felt. Using this system, at least the customer would know exactly what he was paying for, feltwise. Too often, nowadays, the x's mean nothing more than a dollar value. Even Stetson did this later on with the 7x and 10 felt. Both were basically pure beaver, but the 10x had better liners, and sweats. Or, that is what I gleaned from the Stetson Book. Fedora

 

[mthatter]

erased by mt

 

[Fedora]

One question-why would a hatter extremely pounce a body, then grease it and powder it?

I wonder about hatters using the really fine grits. Being new at the hatmaking craft, I have basically learned by trial and error. I think you learned the same way John. Or, I thought you told me that once.

I kept listening to another hatter, and how he was using 1500 and 2000 grit paper, etc, and he even has others doing this. I went for a long time before I even tried it. Personally, to me, it removes too much nap, and you end up with a cardboard smooth finish. Perhaps one would have to use such a fine paper on low quality felt that tends to fuzz up, but on a fine beaver body, it does not seem necessary to me at all. Overkill. My beaver bodies finish out so well, and with little effort in the pouncing department. An indicator of a good felt IMHO. And how does one pounce a hat for days????? :eusa_doh:

On the greasing and powder application, I was under the impression that these processes were used for sub par felt. A cosmetic procedure to make cheap felt look better, or to mask the inferior quality. Now, that is what I have read. To take a fine beaver hat body and impregnate it with powder that will bleed out on your fine white shirt in a rain seems rather stupid to me. But what do I know? What little I do know has come from hands on experience.(with some much needed helpful tips from you) If I have to use powder to get a good color, I think I would just look for a better felt. Fedora

 

[jpdesign]

Ok, now for one of the things I was taught years ago and have been practicing, and was told to keep to myself, but may clear some things up.

If you want to test bodies to know if your body seller is producing what you ask for, or if you want to know if your hatter is honest, try this yourself.

hair fibers from different animals have different smells when burned. by burning fibers from a hat, and comparing to what you know to be pure rabbit, beaver, or some other fiber, you can determine the content of the hat. Much like a Perfumers nose can be trained to certain smells, you can learn the different smels of burning hair. Beaver, rabbit, wool, buffalo, mink, and chinchilla all have different smells. Even nutria and beaver have different smells, although they are extremely similar.

Stetson makes at least two blends of beaver and rabbit. One about 50/50, one much less, maybe 10% or less, but it is there. Sometime a 30 x will have some rabbit, sometimes there will be no trace. They also make a pure beaver, wool, buffalo, beaver and mink blend, and beaver and chinchilla blend. They have not used an all rabbit body since they started the Buffalo hats.

I have tested other hatters bodies and found that some tell the truth about what they are selling and some don't. As to the ones that don'ttell the truth, I can't say if they knowingly do this, or if they are being sold bodies that are not what they ask for.

No, I do not test all the bodies I get in, but if there is some question of quality I will.

Jimmy

 

[jpdesign]

AS for pouncing for multiple days. It is for a few hours at a time. If you have a western hat that you want to be thinner, you need to pounce it down, but you have to be careful. After the long hairs are nocked off, I used 600 grit, 1000 grit, and 1500 grit. I used the finer grits because should something start to come up that I didn't like I could still fix it without it getting too bad. And I pounced it by hand. With sandpaper and a block. I have seen hatters use palm sanders, I do it myself sometimes, but to pounce by hand gives a differant feel than to use a sander. I even pounce the crown on some hats by hand instead of using a crown iron.

Jimmy