Baron Seabiscuit woman's hat.

[android]

The Rest of the Story

When we saw Seabiscuit, my wife really liked the hat in one of the stable scenes. I decided to try and find one for her. I started by calling Art, but he didn't know about the hat. Since Baron did a lot of Seabiscuit work, I called and spoke with Mark about making the hat. He told me he knew how to do it and had blocks for it. I had some additional questions about the hat which I sent by email. Here's my questions and Mark's reply:

Preliminary Questions:

1) Is this a Panama straw body?
a) Montecristi or Cuenca?
b) backwoven edge?
ANSWER: We will use Cuenca or Brisa, and yes, it has a backwoven edge.

2) Will it have the fold/seam/whatever across the top like the picture?
ANSWER: YES

3) What about the ornament on the ribbon?
ANSWER: We will find something as close as possible to the original.

Base on this information, I ordered the hat on April 13th. It cost $338 including $40 for shipping. I was hoping to get the hat for Mother's Day, but this was a soft deadline. I understand that handmade hats sometimes take a while.

Didn't hear from Mark and it looked like it wasn't going to show up for Mother's day. I gave him a call and he said it might take a few more weeks. He was trying to get it just right and it wasn't coming out to his liking. OK, I can live with that, I'd rather it be right than rushed.

A few more weeks go by and I give them a call. Now he's having trouble with the block and he also wants to try and get a different body. Needs a few more weeks. OK.

A few more weeks go by and I give him a call. He needs to make a new block. The one he has isn't working right. Fine.

I finally talk to him in late June. The block is done, the hat is almost done and he says it will ship soon. We discuss finishing and the hat pin. I make it clear it doesn't have to be exactly the same, just some kind of hat pin about the same size to finish off the ribbon nicely. Mark says he'll get one.

I let him know I'm going on vacation and give them an alternate address to ship to for the next two weeks.

Hat doesn't come to where we're staying on vacation. I get home and find an email from Kevin in my spam filter (How many AOL addresses do these guys have?). He's sent some pictures for my approval.

I take a look and notice the edge is not backwoven as promised. I email him about it and here is his response:


In a message dated 7/11/2005 9:24:18 AM Pacific Standard Time, xxx@xxx.rr.com writes:
Kevin,

I was just looking over the pictures and it looks like this hat has a stitched edge.

In my original discussions with Mark (see attached), he had said this would have a backwoven edge. I'm not sure what to make of this since I tend to think of a stitched edge as a sign of an inferior hat body. Can you please discuss with Mark and let me know what's up?

Thanks,
Andy
Andy,

We were unable to find a hat body with a bockwoven edge in that specific brim width. This in no way means you are getting an inferior hat body. For us to have a custom hat woven to your exact specifications... we MIGHT find someone to hand weave it (which would cost $400!) and they would provide a backweave!

Thanks,

Kevin



Not that I can really do much at this point because they've already shipped it. I also asked about the hat pin which is not show on the pictures and they told me they didn't find one.

I think we all know what a crock of bull that is, but I do believe they might have the nerve to try and charge $400 for a grosso Cuenca body!

UPS lady brings the hat the next day (UPS Ground, nowhere near the $40 I was charge and it's in a 50 cent box). Wife adores it, that's the only good part of the story.

But I am pretty disappointed in the overall quality here. I notice the weave of the crown doesn't seem to be the same as the brim. Nope, it's not. That's because it's stitched on under the sweatband. Take a look:

This is a very coarse body:

and the edge stitching is pretty tacky:

So, I will not be ordering from Baron again and I would advise others to try and find a different hatter.

Here's a link to high resolution images for those who are interested.
Seabiscuit Hat

I'd be happy to answer any questions.

Andy

 

[dopey]

A Tragedy

This is really a pity. That hat is a beautiful style and block. Unfortunately, the finished product, while superficially beautiful, is fundamentally crap. The good news, and I don't wish to be rude about your wife or women in general, is that it is a woman's hat. I have noticed that even high-end women's clothing is often shoddy and poorly made, and the customers don't care. Many women just don't care if their clothes are well made. Unlike men's clothing, it is not meant to be particularly long lasting as women's fashions change quickly. Of course, this was not always true. My wife buys both vintage and new Pucci and I get ill when I look at the new stuff. While made in Italy, it might as well be made in chinese sweatshop. The older stuff, on the other hand, is amazing. If your wife likes the hat, then keep your knowledge of its poor quality to yourself. It should come as no surprise that I don't get back a smile when I tell my wife that the new dress she bought at the Pucci boutique is is of no better quality than what she could buy at H&M or from a street vendor.

While Baron's lied to you about what they would make for you, they made a genuine effort to create a beautiful hat, and succeeded. I can't judge other people's business model and don't know what it would have cost them or how much they would have charged to do it right, but a hat on that block using a decent-weave full-size Montecristi body would have been truly spectacular.

You are within your rights to reject the hat as not as described. Perhaps you can find out if Panamabob can supply you with a large enough body in a weave that you think is suitable and then pay Baron's to block and style it.

 

[K.D. Lightner]

Yes, dopey, I hear you loud and clear. I try to buy women's things when they fit and are of decent quality.

Years ago, I used to do a lot of hiking and backpacking. I would go to stores to buy sweaters, jackets, hiking boots and the like, and discovered early one that if it was made for women, it was inferior.

Take a backpacking sweater. The women's sweaters, which cost just as much as the men's, were made of thin wool material that wouldn't keep a polar bear warm. I bought men's sweaters and used them for years, and was warm even in freezing temperatures. I looked one time (in REI) at Rockport shoes: the men's were strong, substantial, felt and looked as if you could walk across America in them; the same style in the woman's shoe might as well have been made of cardboard.

So, yes, I prefer men's things to women, when I can get them, and that includes hats, panama or otherwise, and various articles of clothing, not to mention most shoes and boots and some articles of clothing.

I guess they think we women will buy anything as long as it is "stylish" and in a pretty color. I threatened Lane Bryant a few weeks ago, when I went in to look at some of their clothes, and said to them, " if your stuff gets any worse, I am off to Men's Big and Tall!"

I also noticed that men's clothing seem to be more in natural materials than women's. I believe they think any woman over a size 18 wants to wear polyester mumu's. Wrong!!

I am venting. Sorry.

karol

 

[jamespowers]

Holy Crimony! I would not have accepted it if it were me. It would have turned around just as fast as I got it and I would be on the phone to my credit card company. Then again, I probably would not have let it go on for months and months either. You could have gotten interest ont hat money!
Yes, I know I am a pretty tough customer when it comes to custom made or having jobs done---just ask the guy who had to come back and paint my house three times because it wasn't right. It is also the principle of the thing. If these dopes (sorry dopey) get away with this time and again it only makes them bolder the next time. They would be talking out of a new hole I ripped them. Ridiculous to be taken advantage of and for that amount of money I could buy 10 bodies to experiment on.
I also know what you mean Karol. My wife has done the same thing you have when it came to sneakers. Fine with me. We have matching pairs.

Regards to all,

J

 

[Zach R.]

Just as long as you don't do the opposite, everything will be peachy-keen.

 

[jamespowers]

Just as long as you don't do the opposite, everything will be peachy-keen.

Nah, pumps make my calves look big. The styles also change too fast for me.

Regards to all,

J

 

[Matt Deckard]

Would it be impossible to send it back? it's clearly not the hat pictured in Seabiscuit.

 

[Panamabob]

I'll send some photos down to Ecuador and see what they think.

Gee, a brisa or llano Cuenca might cost about $10.00 and $40.00 respectively to weave at the quality I see...I can't stand liars.

 

[dopey]

While everyone seems to be urging android to return the hat, remember, he bought it for his wife. Perhaps they will knock the price down for delivering something other than they promised, but that may be better than returning it and leaving his wife without a hat that she is perfectly happy with but a bunch of hat nuts say has inferior construction. The point wasn’t to please us or even him, but to please her. If android was willing to pay $x for a hat that his wife liked and he got that, he may be perfectly content to keep it and that would be perfectly sensible.

Of course, he also has every right to return the hat and get his money back.

 

[scotrace]

Complete Misnomer

Exactly, Dopey. What we think doesn't matter at all. If the person to whom it was given is pleased, that's all that matters.

you should consider changing your name to Smarty.

 

[Biltmore Bob]

But you will always know, Android...

And it will nag and needle you forever. Everytime you see it you will just know that it was a misrepresentation. I'd send it back, I just could not live with that kind of knowledge. What a shame.

At least when I buy Dickies khakis I know they contain polyester.

 

[K.D. Lightner]

Android -- I would say that, if you gave it to your wife as a present, and she is delighted with it, then it is now hers. If you return it, you run the risk of upsetting her.

I certainly would be very upset if someone gave me a gift, which I loved, and then took it back because that someone had decided it wasn't good enough. Hey, give me my hat!

At least you know now that that particular hatter did not or cannot deliver what we want. You know it and we all know it.

karol

 

[android]

Ladies Seabiscuit hat by Baron Hats

Baron has two customers they needed to please. My wife and me. They only made her happy.

Based on the original correspondence, I knew I was paying too much for the quality of the hat quoted, but was willing to pay a bit extra for the style. I figured a Cuenca brisa with a backweave and fully fitted out with the hatpin would be about a $100 hat and I'd be paying $200 for the style.

The hat that I was sent is at best a $20 hat. Panama Bob could probably get me a Montecristi blank with a backwoven edge with double the weave count for less than $50. A very nice body could easily be had for under $100, nowhere near the $400 price Kevin gave me. Contrary to what Kevin states, this is clearly an inferior body.

I'm pretty easy to get along with as long as you are honest and deliver what you promise. The staff at Baron has done neither.

Since I paid about $250 for the "lesson" of learning how Baron delivers on its promises, I figured out would share the information with my fellow Fedorans, so as to defer the cost.

 

[Matt Deckard]

I'm not sure about that "U" crease on the crown. I thought it was a single line across the top.

 

[jitterbugdoll]

You know what Matt--I think you are right about the crease.

Too bad this did not work out--that's a real shame. Have you mentioned your concerns to your wife? I'd ask what her opinion was--if she's happy and okay with the lacking quality, then she should keep the hat. But she might side with you and the fact that you dropped a wad of cash on something that was not what you ordered, and be willing to wait for a hat that is worth the price (I think I would be willing to do so). I'd at least haggle over the price and demand that you get some money back!

 

[android]

I do think the crease is mostly right. Here's another photo with a more forward angle.

 

[Matt Deckard]

So maybe it does have the "U".

 

[scotrace]

Straight Crease

The Seabiscuit one seems to have a "U" shaped crease. But I know the single center crease ladie's hat you mean, Matt. There was one on Ebay not long ago... let me see if I can find the link, I posted it in the Powder Room because i thought it was very nice...
Yes, here it is:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=74971&item=8307523295&rd=1

I still think it was a very nice ladie's hat, and it went for a song.

 

[Matt Deckard]

Pretty neat, very adventurous. i have also seen them with the crease off kilter and not going directly over the top.

 

[android]

Good News from Baron!

Kevin Green from Baron Hats has contacted me and they have offered to make another Seabiscuit hat that actually fulfills the original specifications. I am very pleased to hear this. This is real customer service that does differentiate them from most hat makers!

7/22/2005

Andrew,

Mark has given me the green light to remake your wife's hat in a better material!

He will call you on Monday to give you the specifics. We will not ask your wife to return her hat! She can keep it as a gift from us.

You were undoubtebly flexible and easy to work with. We accept 100% responsibility for your unsatisfaction. After reviewing the pictures it is obvious we underdelivered (which is something that we NEVER do!).

Very Best,

Kevin Greene
Customer Service Manager
Baron Hats
(818)563-3025




7/15/2005


Andy,

Your experience is unfortunate to say the least!

Since I have been aboard the Baron team (since the end of May), I have gotten nothing but positive feedback with our completed work (maybe because I have personally managed almost every project). Even though I wasn't personally micromanaging your project, I know what/how much was involved. Our number one priority really is customer satisfaction. If you are not 100% satisfied with our work, you are more than welcome to send the hat back (at OUR expense), until you find perfection (something we normally achieve the first time around!). From experience I KNOW that this is an isolated event of an unsatisfied Baron customer.

I personally don't think it's fair to generalize the quality and service of our business based on this one order, and I'm confident you would feel the same way if you were in my position (Customer Service Manager). I understand your frustration, but must defend everything that our business has achieved, and cite the thousands of happy customers (you can see a handful of our satisfied customers at http://baronhats.com/hatsoff.htm)! I've had customers mention plenty of "Baron praise" throughout the Fedora Lounge!

I am extremely happy to hear that your wife enjoyed the finished product!

As far as the hat, I am quite aware that the crown and brim were made from 2 pieces (which made shaping the hat a lot easier and exacting). The material we used REQUIRED us to order 2 hat bodies (considering we could not find a large enough hat body), hence we did in fact use a Brisa (which was closest to the pictures both in texture and color). We were trying to recreate a movie hat, and that is exactly what we did. Like I said, if you are not happy, we are not happy. Please send us the hat back, and we would LOVE to perfect it for you. We would be happy to updgrade the weave, and we will try our best to make it out of 1 hatbody.

Again we are all sorry that the finished project did not meet your expectations. As far as we are all concerned, the project is not over until you are 100% satisfied and THAT is what differentiates us from a lot of other hat makers.

I hope for a happy resolve, and would appreciate it if you were so kind as to post my response on the message board!

Very best,

Kevin Greene
Customer Service Manager
Baron Hats
(818)563-3025