Army Airforce Enlisted Dress Uniform Circa Dec. 1941

[3PcSuit]

Hello all. I am trying to throw together an outfit like this for Pearl Harbor Day. Can I get away with a modern uniform with a few modifications (like adding a tie so I don't look like a slob). Does anyone have either pictures or descriptions of any modifications/specialty items that I'd need to pull it off as best possible. I don't need 100% accuracy (although I'd like to if I could), but I want people to know that I'm dressing the vintage way and am not just modern-day cannon fodder. I know I'm supposed to tuck the tie into the shirt as was the style in the military in the 40s.

Regards.
~Karl Borowski

 

[Zemke Fan]

Quick response...

Hello all. I am trying to throw together an outfit like this for Pearl Harbor Day. Can I get away with a modern uniform with a few modifications (like adding a tie so I don't look like a slob). Does anyone have either pictures or descriptions of any modifications/specialty items that I'd need to pull it off as best possible. I don't need 100% accuracy (although I'd like to if I could), but I want people to know that I'm dressing the vintage way and am not just modern-day cannon fodder. I know I'm supposed to tuck the tie into the shirt as was the style in the military in the 40s.

Regards.
~Karl Borowski

Hello, Karl. Quick response since I'm out the door to work:
- Pacific theater I presume?
- EM and Officers both wore khaki in the tropics.
- Not necessary to have a jacket, just shirt, trousers, tie, web belt, and garrison (overseas) cap. (See photo below.)
- These can be ordered through several vendors here in the USA.
- One recommendation: What Price Glory $102.00 for shirt, pants, and tie. (Belt and EM hats are currently out of stock.)

If you want a European look (accurate as a Class A for Pacific): EM Package Deal $375.00 (Note: Substitute black tie for khaki prior to 1942)

ZF

 

[Baggers]

Hi Karl,
It's really going to be hard to pull it off using elements from the current uniform. The colors and cut are totally wrong. Essentially, your looking at a long sleeve shirt, socks and trousers all in khaki tan with a web belt in a slightly darker shade called OD #3. You'd complete the ensemble with a black tie and russet brown cap toe ankle boots.

For a cap, one either wore the service cap ("saucer" hat) or the garrison cap ("overseas" cap) in matching khaki, or possibly the service hat ("smokey bear" style DI hat) if you were in the field. You could also wear the fiber helmet (pith helmet), but only if you're going actually portray a soldier in Hawaii on 07 DEC 1941.

Go rent "Tora Tora Tora" and you'll see plenty of tropical Army, Navy and Marine Corps uniforms on display and you'll see what I'm talking about. The original version of "From Here to Eternity" with Burt Lancaster is very good for Army uniforms. Both films will also give you an excellent feel for how the uniform is supposed to look when worn (trimly fit, with lotsa starch and sharp creases!).

It's best to check out the links posted by Zemke and do a little research before acting too hastily. Good luck!

Cheers!

 

[up196]

Sears

Try Sears Roebuck for the khakis. Get the "Roebucks" brand work clothes; they're not perfect for material and weight, but I think they'll do for what you want . . . Tom

 

[3PcSuit]

Just wanted to follow up:

Got a Gree Dress Uniform, might be officer (so I need to remove green bands around the sleeves? Pants are fine no stripes.

Would someone stationed in Hawai'i Wheeler Field Army Airforce on 6 Dec. 1941 HAVE a green service uniform?


What hats were appropriate to wear with the Green? As to the organizational patches, the only ones I can find for that specific division, 7th Hawai'i division, weren't issued until 1942. What would they have worn in '41?


Also, it's missing insignia. What do I need besides the obvious US and Chevrons? I know Chevrons were/are on both sleeves of the jacket. What about the shirt?


Would it be acceptable to only wear the rounded service cap, or would the "waiter" '50s hat in khaki go with the greeen uniform? Or could I get a green "'50s waiter hat?"


WIll post a photo of the shirt (including the red, yellow blue striped circle insignia) as soon as I figure out how to reactivate my Photobucket account. . .


One final thing, has a bunch of little white holes, from either moths or pins. What pin could I put on the shoulder?

As for rank, what would an aircraft mechanic who'd been in a year and a half to two and a half years rank with that amount of service?

What ribbons, if any would such a mechanic have?



Thanks so much for all your help. I really value the insight on these fora. . .

 

[3PcSuit]

Here's the patch. Notice also the white pinprick / mothhole I need to cover somehow or dye.

 

[Phantomfixer]

That looks to be an officers service jacket(gaberdine). I would not do anything to it. Trade it maybe for an enlisted service jacket. I would not remove the green bands around the wrist. It would devalue the jacket.

 

[Saxswinger]

I concur with Phantomfixer's suggestion. I'd never recommend taking apart an original uniform, especially an officers. :eeek: You should be able to trade it in for an EM tunic.

Shop around ebay and you might find originals in your size cheaper than the repros. Especially when it comes to hats.

Also you'll need to find one of these pre-war GHQA patches:

Here's what to look for:
http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=33724&mode=threaded

Helpful Ref on another thread:
http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?34489-Pre-WWII-Air-Corps-Uniform

Happy hunting!

- JB

 

[3PcSuit]

I ended up using it as was. No alterations (besides sleeve hems) were made, I was only talking about non-destructively removing and storing them.

I notice the GHQ logo being recommended, but would that have been suitable OUTSIDE of GHQ? The Hawai'ian air corps should have had its own patch even in '41. Or did everyone wear the GHQ?


The officers' tunic is a perfect fit. Even if it's not totally correct I'll be keeping it. I will sew some chevrons on though.

What rank would be suitable? Sergeant, technician? What would an aircraft mechanic with just a couple years' experience generally rate?


Also, as to Chevron placement is it on both shoulders of the coat and both of the jacket? I know the GHQ patch or another patch is only on the left shoulder of both the jacket and pink shirt. . .

 

[3PcSuit]

Also, regardless of the type, where can I GET authentic '41 period Chevrons, and a logo? Is there a certain color thread that'd be best?

I want to, economically of course, be as close to accurate as possible.


What, by the way, are the differences between officer and lnlisted jackets? ANything besides the green bands around the sleeves?

Besides a "U.S." pin for the jacket, what else would an aircraft mechanic at Wheeler have had in terms of "jewelry" on the uniform. Any ribbons given prebellum in standard practice at that time?


Thanks gents. . .

 

[1961MJS]

Also, regardless of the type, where can I GET authentic '41 period Chevrons, and a logo? Is there a certain color thread that'd be best?
You can get WW2 period Chevrons from http://www.atthefront.com/
I want to, economically of course, be as close to accurate as possible.

What, by the way, are the differences between officer and enlisted jackets? Anything besides the green bands around the sleeves?
The officer and enlisted service uniforms are vastly different in material, cut, and decoration. http://www.atthefront.com/us/uniforms/servicecoats.html has them as does What Price Glory: http://onlinemilitaria.net/shopexd.asp?id=2409&bc=no Jerry's are on sale right now too.
Besides a "U.S." pin for the jacket, what else would an aircraft mechanic at Wheeler have had in terms of "jewelry" on the uniform. Any ribbons given prebellum in standard practice at that time? Pre-war, an aircraft mechanic at Wheeler wouldn't have had ANY jewelry on his uniform except the good conduct medal. From talking to my Dad (joined in May 41), that's the one medal you could almost certainly get by with wearing. Dad has one and isn't proud of it at all to the point of making me promise NOT to list his medals in his obit. He was in the weather squadron and has the good conduct and pacific war ribbon. In order to get the good conduct medal you had to have NOT been in the stockade in the last three years. Most of the Pacific islands didn't have one for Dad to have gotten in to.

I hope this helps.

 

[Baggers]

Please don't sew any chevrons on it. No matter how carefully you remove them later, stitch holes will show. And please also do not remove the cuff braid. Again, stitch holes will show, but also after 70 some odd years there will probably be a slightly darker ring left where the braid was due to fading. Finally, if you sew them back on, the new thread will betray you due to differences involved with modern thread.

The uniforms worn by officers and enlisted men were as different as night and day. Different cut, different fabrics, and different shades of Olive Drab. Enlisted men were issued their uniforms by the Army Quartermaster, but officers were given a yearly stipend to buy their uniforms from private vendors.

Since you asked this question over FIVE years ago, nothing has changed. The "Green Dress Uniform" you have is still inappropriate for Hawaii, let alone for the enlisted man you want to portray. Luckily, the world of reproductions has progressed greatly since then. For $100 you can buy an excellent set of well fitting khakis from At The Front. For an extra 20 bucks you can get the matching garrison cap complete with Air Corps piping. They also have the correct rayon or khaki chevrons and collar discs. The only thing they don't have is the Air Corps shoulder insignia. Add a pair of brown cap toe service shoes (they have those too) or low quarters, a black necktie, an OD#3 web belt, khaki socks, and a white athletic shirt (no T shirts) and you're done. Not counting footwear, in and out for less than $200 probably. And all from one vendor for the most part.

I don't mean to bust on you. People get stalled on projects all the time. But a quick web search could have spared you whatever you spent on a uniform that is totally wrong for what you wanted to do.

All that said, now if you want to go for a Stateside or European Theatre officer impression, you've gotten the hard part out of the way. All you have to do is accessorize the one you have.

 

[3PcSuit]

Baggers:

I DID take your advice back in '05 for the first event. The shirt was too big (finally sized up after probably at least ten washings on hot). The pants, despite repeated washings will never fit. They're far too big.

I'm a small guy 9-1/2 stone (a buck thirty-two). Finding this outfit spared me from an obvious rental from a party house that I had to resort to.


With the eception of one of the gals at the dance, maybe, my outfit was the most convincingly period of the group. I even hid my long hair under the cap and shvaved off my facial hair to get as close as possibble to the perfect look (yes I know a hat indoors is a nono, but my excuse was that I was in the press corps, quite a valid reason to keep the hat on for the civies of that era.


The things that you notice that are not correct about the officer jacket fooled 90-y.os that were there that had seen it first hand, and is probably at least as accurate as some of the shoddy jobs and "creative licenses" seeen iin mmovies.

Only "Valkyrie" have I seeen the German Uniforms worn as they actually were, without all the medals pinned on all the time as it is in every other period movie.

Just like "2001" was the only movie to get no sound in space right (even 2010 got it wrong) it is the rare rare outfit, costume that is 100% accurate.


Also the expenses entailed do have to be factored in at some point. The outfit I got was a steal at $62, with alterations slightly under a hundred. I don't have $500 to spend on a costume.


I felt far worse that I dropped my flashgun and haad to use electronic flash that was completely wrong for the period (at least with a battery under 50 lb.) I did have the bar lights, movie camera, and period equipment that was veyr very very close to period though.


I think this is a better result tahn spendning $500 on a custom outfit, that is too big even with alterations, and then yakking away on a cellphopne or pulling out a 12MP digital camera :-D

Was temptecd to light up indoors too. Told osomeon I'd never been anywhere except a church that you couldn't smoke. LOL>


Will be sure to psost photos, I think I did a great job hiding a foot of hair and making do on a micro budget. Without chevrons I passed myself off as a private. Band leader came over and shoook our hands for showing up. I had to apologize hoim for not having ennough cord for the barllight to light and film hsi band :-D

 

[Baggers]

Wait, WHAT? "9 1/2 stone?" That 's the trouble with this place, sometimes people don't indicate what country they're from. If you aren't American, that fact might have helped us give you better advice about where to go and get things. I don't know about anyone else, but I was assuming you were in in the U.S.

Oh well, I'm glad it worked out for you. But please, PLEASE don't remove anything from that uniform without running it past us. You could ruin the resale value of it.

Cheers!

 

[3PcSuit]

Yeah, I am from the U.S.

As long as I come out above $62 I'm ahead of the game, right?


Anyway, there are plenty of holes in the uniform from pins already being taken off, removed, and tehre is a poorly-patcehd hole in the seat of the trousers (so can't take off the jacket).

I am just pointing out that it would be one thing if someone were transported in time from 1941 who served. Even a living veteran from that time though probably won't remember the differences.

Cut and type of cloth assides, you have to admit the differences are pretty subtle.


I found a picture from 1940, all enlisted men, Hawai'i, and the only difference I can notice is that there's no piping on the sleeves and the bottom-most button isn't obscured by the belt of hte jacket.

At teh very least, even if it is an officer's uniform, I will change the unit patch. Also that photo from '40, although in B&W< looked like they were weraing the very same colors as what I have, or very close to it. They certainly weren't wearing pinks. Might have had the pink trousers on some of them, and tehy were wearing nicer leateher? belts?

 

[3PcSuit]

Also: Please actually read my post and you'll see the reasons I grabbed this. The clothes I bought don't fit my scrawny figure, I only get use out of the shirt. Tie was flimsy, and the wrong color, adn the belt cracked because the buckle wasn't very good.

I probably ought to sell the pink trousers, as they are in mint condition and I think I've shrunk thgem as much as I can in that washer.


But getting back to having the vintage outfit and a cell phone, no cigarettes,digital camera, no vintage money (or worse, no cash!), etc. etc. etc. seems like everyone compromises on something.

I think a uniform only four years too new, with a newer-style belt and an officer's trim, slightly different shade of green is Pretty close to what I'm going for, certainly better than a garment that doesn't fit, made of flimsy materials that photograph well for movies, but aren't necessarily 100% authentic and are only sized for average sizes.

 

[Gene]

Yeah, I am from the U.S.

As long as I come out above $62 I'm ahead of the game, right?


Anyway, there are plenty of holes in the uniform from pins already being taken off, removed, and tehre is a poorly-patcehd hole in the seat of the trousers (so can't take off the jacket).

I am just pointing out that it would be one thing if someone were transported in time from 1941 who served. Even a living veteran from that time though probably won't remember the differences.

Cut and type of cloth assides, you have to admit the differences are pretty subtle.


I found a picture from 1940, all enlisted men, Hawai'i, and the only difference I can notice is that there's no piping on the sleeves and the bottom-most button isn't obscured by the belt of hte jacket.

At teh very least, even if it is an officer's uniform, I will change the unit patch. Also that photo from '40, although in B&W< looked like they were weraing the very same colors as what I have, or very close to it. They certainly weren't wearing pinks. Might have had the pink trousers on some of them, and tehy were wearing nicer leateher? belts?

The differences aren't subtle at all actually. In fact they are quite extreme, which is why the Army moved to the "democratization" of the uniform you have today where officer's and enlisted men wear the same thing with tiny variations. B&W photos don't really do justice to just how different they were. I can see how to the untrained eye it can all get a little confusing, but with a little bit of research you shouldn't have a problem discerning the two.

The leather belt you refer to is the "garrison belt" which was phased out for EMs in 1942. The officer's belt was a Sam Browne style with a cross-strap, and was also phased out for the cloth belt. The differences in officer's uniforms depended on what tailor they went to and you see every possible shade of OD for the coats. The "pinks" were preferred, but you still see the dark OD pants as well. They are called "chocolates."

You are lucky if you are a smaller size because there are lots of originals to be had in smaller sizes that don't go for that much since the larger sizes are the more desirable. Size 34-36 jackets can be had for under $30, and size 28-30-31 trousers for even less sometimes. Khaki shirts can be had for next to nothing, just make sure if you're doing EM they don't have epaulets. The khaki summer uniform is probably the easiest impression you can do well. And remember, no two shades of khaki ever matched so don't let that stop you! There was much less uniformity in WWII.

 

[3PcSuit]

Gene, I did quite a bit of research for the past two weeks. The internet probably limited it, as I should have dug up some Nat Geos at the library from that era, but even they were using B&W at that point for some things. Am a big fan of B&W, but considering the film wasn't even always panchromatic at that time (just blue and green sensitive) that further complicates matters not knowing; male portraiture especially still preferred ortho film because it made the male face look more masculine in the preferences of the time.

So considering the limitations I had, I think I did a pretty good job!


I'm not TOO tiny 5'9, 15-33, 30 or 32 in. waist. Problem is I'm slender. There were more tapers available at that time, but, regardless, they are hard for me to find in my area.

As to the buckle and belt, my bottom-most button is probably bakelite, and I noticed the belts were either slightly below or above the bottom button, so I guess I need to modify that.

Was the coat itself the same besides a different belt? My uniform is from the summer of '45. . .

 

[Gene]

Was the coat itself the same besides a different belt? My uniform is from the summer of '45. . .

Oh yeah, the officer's coat didn't change much throughout the war, and was still worn by officers all the way up until the "Modern Army Green" uniform came out in the late 50's. All that happened was the Sam Browne belt was replaced with the cloth belt. You'll see lots of variations in the pocket flaps, cut, material, color, but pretty much the only "uniform" coat was the one issued by the Army and available for purchase at the PX, but even THAT wasn't consistent due to different contracts with different makers.

So a '45 dated coat wouldn't be any different than a '41 dated coat. I WILL say however that there was a pre-war officer's coat that was actually a little different. There was a pronounced space in the waist where the leather belt could fit...these were largely replaced very early in the war and actually re-issued out to Aviation Cadets; I have my grandpa's that had S/Sgt. stripes sewn onto it when he went through Glider training.

 

[3PcSuit]

So, wait, after all this criticism of my using an officer's coat to simulate an enlisted man, the Army Airforce did the exact same thing with surplus earlier model officers coats issued out to cadets?

My patch seems to indicate some sort of training, replacement troops, and there is a receipt or ticket stub in the pocket from when I bought it dated 1946 for a WWII commemorative dance.


It seems that the uniform belonged to someone drafted, trained, but that didn't see action due to the end of the war I am guessing. Probably, same an aviation cadet.


Despite it probably belonging to an aviation cadet, it definitely has the newer style belt and a plastic button (other three are traditional metal) so unless it was altered seems to be a newer style coat issued to a cadet.


Sorry, don't own a digital camera, but will post some photos next time I get a chance to do a film run. . .