A2s in the Jet Age

[rocketeer]

Searching the Jetpilotoverseas.wordpress.com site I came across these pics.
Have a flick through the link and you will see a 1950s mix of leathers and nylon.

http://jetpilotoverseas.wordpress.com/category/a-2/

Johnny Tee

 

[Big J]

Fantastic!
Thanks for posting!

 

[Deacon211]

I imagine, like WEP jackets in my era, wearing your A-2 showed that this wasn't your first rodeo.

I remember wearing my flight suits till they were practically see through in order to avoid those execrable mid-90s baggy behinded replacements. Luckily, the old style was eventually brought back.

Thanks for the pic!

 

[rocketeer]

Scroll down and there are lots more A2 jacket featured. Plus! Hit the 'Flight Jacket Data button at the top right and a whole list of nylon contract numbers and makers are there if that is your thing.

 

[Smithy]

The jetpilotoverseas site is made by a chap called Stu over at VLJ, it's a magnificent collection of images.

Seeing A-2s and nylon flight jackets together wasn't really that rare in the 50s and especially during the Korean War. For example the average age of a USAF F-86 Sabre pilot during the war was 29.5 which meant that many were veterans of WWII and had enlisted in the USAAF at an age when A-2s were still standard issue to new aircrew.

I have another photo from the same series as the image in the first post which shows the same A-2 wearing pilot in a mock pre mission briefing and there is another of his squadron members in an A-2.

 

[rocketeer]

The jetpilotoverseas site is made by a chap called Stu over at VLJ, it's a magnificent collection of images.

Seeing A-2s and nylon flight jackets together wasn't really that rare in the 50s and especially during the Korean War. For example the average age of a USAF F-86 Sabre pilot during the war was 29.5 which meant that many were veterans of WWII and had enlisted in the USAAF at an age when A-2s were still standard issue to new aircrew.

I have another photo from the same series as the image in the first post which shows the same A-2 wearing pilot in a mock pre mission briefing and there is another of his squadron members in an A-2.

I cant access the VLJ site as I dont have a 'Proper' email and just use the free ones, so came across this site via looking for the Chuck Yeager pic in another post
In WWII I think you would have gained the 'Old Man' of the crew honor at that age. Was it about 21-23 years old?
Cheers, J

 

[Smithy]

In WWII I think you would have gained the 'Old Man' of the crew honor at that age. Was it about 21-23 years old?
Cheers, J

Hi J,

One of the biggest differences in the "culture" of fighter pilots between WWII and Korea was age. You might be interested to know that 68% of pilots who destroyed MiG-15s during the conflict were over 28 and over and had flown an average of 18 combat missions during WWII. There was an informal motto bandied around in the fighter interceptor squadrons - "not the boldest but the oldest!"

Cheers,

Tim

 

[Edward]

I imagine, like WEP jackets in my era, wearing your A-2 showed that this wasn't your first rodeo.

That makes logical sense from the 'establishing status' pov, a very human thing. Are the US forces generally prone to let the men wear issue gear until it needs replaced, then, rather than issuing them with replacement gear as a new standard comes in and requiring them to wear the new? (Half-remembered conversations with folk I've known in British forces suggest the latter approach is more prevalent over here... at least in theory, though I know there have been shortages in recent years which presumably means old stuff still gets used in the field).

The jetpilotoverseas site is made by a chap called Stu over at VLJ, it's a magnificent collection of images.

Seeing A-2s and nylon flight jackets together wasn't really that rare in the 50s and especially during the Korean War. For example the average age of a USAF F-86 Sabre pilot during the war was 29.5 which meant that many were veterans of WWII and had enlisted in the USAAF at an age when A-2s were still standard issue to new aircrew.

I have another photo from the same series as the image in the first post which shows the same A-2 wearing pilot in a mock pre mission briefing and there is another of his squadron members in an A-2.

Probably not unlike the older officer in WW2 wearing their A1s?

In WWII I think you would have gained the 'Old Man' of the crew honor at that age. Was it about 21-23 years old?
Cheers, J

Probably, given everything I've ever read about life expectancy.

 

[Deacon211]

Well, I can't speak for every service, but generally in my time, it seemed that you were issued whatever was in stock and, as new gear came on line, you replaced as needed.

So, for instance, I was issued the older (mid-80s) Navy style g-suit with external pockets sewn on the lower legs in '91. The Navy/Marines were transitioning over to the Air Force style g-suit with sort of an integral design that looked like chaps. Those in my class that were on the ends of the size spectrum got the newer design. I got the older. I didn't get the newer design until my old g-suit wore out several years later.

Flight jackets are funny in that they are, or at least were, flight equipment. As such, they really don't fit under the same category as, say, an Ike jacket that would one day no longer be authorized for wear. So those who had the old leather jackets (and liked them...the newer nylons had some very nice features) probably were loathe to give them up if they didn't have to.

The fact that those who had the leather jackets post-WW2, probably had some rank on their collars (and some green ink in their logbooks), likely didn't hurt the amount of "choice" they had in wearing them either I think.

Deacon

 

[Edward]

Thanks, Deacon.

Well, I can't speak for every service, but generally in my time, it seemed that you were issued whatever was in stock and, as new gear came on line, you replaced as needed.

So, for instance, I was issued the older (mid-80s) Navy style g-suit with external pockets sewn on the lower legs in '91. The Navy/Marines were transitioning over to the Air Force style g-suit with sort of an integral design that looked like chaps. Those in my class that were on the ends of the size spectrum got the newer design. I got the older. I didn't get the newer design until my old g-suit wore out several years later.

To me, that would seem the sensible approach, especially conisdering how expensive a standing military is!

Flight jackets are funny in that they are, or at least were, flight equipment. As such, they really don't fit under the same category as, say, an Ike jacket that would one day no longer be authorized for wear. So those who had the old leather jackets (and liked them...the newer nylons had some very nice features) probably were loathe to give them up if they didn't have to.

That's something I've never been entirely clear on - the distinction between flight equipment which happens to be clothing and uniform... I'd probably have assumed all clothing came under "uniform", but obviously not. Is "equipment" something that has a specific function - protective, warmth, whatever - that is only of use in a specific role, as distinct from a climate-appropriate uniform - whether dress or combat?

The fact that those who had the leather jackets post-WW2, probably had some rank on their collars (and some green ink in their logbooks), likely didn't hurt the amount of "choice" they had in wearing them either I think.

Ha, yes.... the nylons were the3 end of rank appearing on flying jackets, weren't they?

 

[aswatland]

Many A2s were refurbished for the Korean War and re-issued. Many airmen who continued in service after the War retained their A2s and, as the excellent photos from Stu's site show, wore them extensively in the Korean War. They were after all a desirable and practical jacket and many were less than a decade old when the Korean War started.

 

[Deacon211]

Interesting, I wasn't aware that they were still issuing A-2s in the 50s. I would have thought those were pretty much issued out by then.

As for the distinction between uniform and flight equipment, I think you are unlikely to find AN answer so much as several of them. After all, there were many pilots still flying in ties when the war started. Something like flight jackets though I believe we're never originally uniform items, which may explain somewhat why they were so varied in those days compared to the strict wear of uniforms.

Flight jackets and flight suits may have become common wear around ready rooms but were not generally authorized to wear off base. Even in the 90s, if I was to stop off base I would not have been authorized to wear my flight jacket. Even camouflage utility uniforms (what the army calls BDUs) were not for travel or routine stops off base.

The army and Air Force have relaxed that policy somewhat as times have changed. The Marines less so. In that vein, I'm less certain that the Air Force considers their new A-2 equipment these days. The navy and Marines I believe still do, but aren't as rabid in enforcing the rules as they once were.

In general, I think war blurs the lines somewhat (heck, I think the WEP jacket would technically be considered underwear). And when the war is over, the standards seldom go back to what they once were.

Personally, I'm glad...I wouldn't want to fly in my Class As!

 

[Brettafett]

I understood that pilots in WW2 had to 'trade in 'their A-2s to receive the 'new' B-10s and B-15s, did many just hold on to them?
I recall reading a bio and the author, a WW2 pilot, said that at some point he had to hand in his beloved, soft and supple A-2 he trained in and was re-issued another A-2 that was terribly stiff, ill-fitting and uncomfortable. I think this may have been the same place I read about pilots having to exchange their A-2 for a B-10, if they wanted too.
Also, at the end of a tour or service, did they have to hand their jackets back? I assume many found a way to keep their jackets...
(I know I would) Anyone shed light on this? Have always wondered about it.

 

[aswatland]

We will never know how many A2s were not handed in when airmen left the USAAF. However, judging by the number of A2 jackets sold to dealers by the families of deceased vets it must have been substantial.

 

[Atticus Finch]

I have always heard that many guys had multiple jackets. They would accomplish this in various ways, but one was by claiming to have loaned their issued A-2 to a friend who went MIA before he returned the jacket. This would allow the "claimant" to draw another jacket from the quartermaster.

On the other hand, my father who was always insufferably honest, only had one jacket and he returned it to the Air Force after the war.

AF

 

[Smithy]

Probably not unlike the older officer in WW2 wearing their A1s?

Not at all dissimilar in all likelihood Edward. Wearing an A-2 probably had a little bit of a badge of honour about it - "I'm an old hand who has seen this combat stuff before sonny". Also if you'd worn yours through one or more WWII combat tours and then in post-WWII postings and all the adventures that those would've created you'd probably have been loathe to part with it.

And in truth perhaps it could be argued it was better to be shot down and try and evade capture in Korea in a brown A-2 than a blue B-15C(Mod) or L-2A

 

[Edward]

In general, I think war blurs the lines somewhat (heck, I think the WEP jacket would technically be considered underwear). And when the war is over, the standards seldom go back to what they once were.

Personally, I'm glad...I wouldn't want to fly in my Class As!

Mn, I should imagine that the needs of active combat can often superceed niceties like uniform regulations once in the field, especially back when. Still amazes me to think that what are now viewed as purely ceremonial uniforms were once what men wore into combat. The pre 1916 Frnech Troops in particular still had a very old-school look to them, with their blue jackets and red trousers. That soon shifted to something less eye-catching as the first industrial war dragged on.

We will never know how many A2s were not handed in when airmen left the USAAF. However, judging by the number of A2 jackets sold to dealers by the families of deceased vets it must have been substantial.

What is thed ogvernment likely to have done with those returned? Would they have sold them off cheap as surplus once they stopped issuing the model?

I have always heard that many guys had multiple jackets. They would accomplish this in various ways, but one was by claiming to have loaned their issued A-2 to a friend who went MIA before he returned the jacket. This would allow the "claimant" to draw another jacket from the quartermaster.

On the other hand, my father who was always insufferably honest, only had one jacket and he returned it to the Air Force after the war.

AF

I'm sure a lot of horse-trading went on to keep hold of favourite jackets as well as get one that fitted right.

Not at all dissimilar in all likelihood Edward. Wearing an A-2 probably had a little bit of a badge of honour about it - "I'm an old hand who has seen this combat stuff before sonny". Also if you'd worn yours through one or more WWII combat tours and then in post-WWII postings and all the adventures that those would've created you'd probably have been loathe to part with it.

Something like that could have become deeply personal, yes -especially to guys who spent hours painting them, and marked every dirty bombing mission on them. On the other hand, I can also imagine that there were those leaving service who were only too happy to be shot of the reminders.

And in truth perhaps it could be argued it was better to be shot down and try and evade capture in Korea in a brown A-2 than a blue B-15C(Mod) or L-2A

Ha, yeah. The blue nylons were by far the sharpest of all the B15 / L2 series in style terms, but somebody dropped the ball on thinking about them evading capture....

 

[Deacon211]

I suspect that a lot of the jackets were sold off as scrap. One thing I didn't mention before but I thought you would find interesting is the differences in the services attitude towards issue and what's considered unserviceable.

When I got to Pensacola, we were offered one flight jacket. You could choose Nomex summer weight or leather. You could not get both. The other jacket and the winter weight Nomex you would have to beg and plead for once you got to your fleet squadron.

After wings, I had about an eight month wait for my flight class to start at the Replacement Air Group (RAG). In the interim, many of us lieutenants were sent out to be "safety observers" in the hot refueling pits in MCAS Cherry Point. It was mighty cold that winter and there was no possibility of getting a winter weight Nomex as these were in short supply. Some of the more inventive gents combed the local surplus shops for winter flight jackets that had been "DRMOed"...or sold for surplus. But most of the jackets available had seen some hard wear, had knits that were worn or torn, and had clearly been sewn several times in the seams.

For those that were willing to travel farther afield, say to Seymore Johnson AFB located perhaps an hour or so away, the pickings were decidedly better. The jackets had been worn clearly, but were in much better shape. It seemed that the Air Force had a different standard of unserviceable than the Marines.

These standards have undoubtedly wandered over the years depending on the money allotted to the services. In lean times or during a big plus up, supplies must have been quite thin and crews made do with the gear that they had. Also, wartime always seems to wear the spit and polish off a peacetime military. Whether it is the increased wear and replacement of equipment or just that scuffed boots seem increasingly trivial when pilots aren't returning from missions, that slap dash, devil may care quality of flight jackets always seems to hew closely to the wartime military.

One last thing that you might find interesting. In relatively recent years, at least the G-1 jackets have become a closely guarded asset. They are, as I think I've said, mostly issued directly from Pensacola and do not live in great stocks around the squadron flight equipment shops. The last time I went to Pensacola, I stopped in to the issue point and chewed the fat with one of the issuers of the jackets. What he said was surprising to me. In the case of the G-1 alone, all surplus jackets are destroyed and not sold off as scrap.

This usually involves cutting off the windflap or otherwise making the jacket not worth stealing/hoarding and, if it doesn't get donated to the survival guys or the museum for use as a display, it is discarded entirely.

I guess, because of their perceived value and the desire that the jackets be kept relatively exclusive to naval aviators and aircrew, the jackets are never DRMOed and sold to the public.

Isn't that a shame though the jackets aren't what they used to be.

 

[Smithy]

I suspect that a lot of the jackets were sold off as scrap. One thing I didn't mention before but I thought you would find interesting is the differences in the services attitude towards issue and what's considered unserviceable.

When I got to Pensacola, we were offered one flight jacket. You could choose Nomex summer weight or leather. You could not get both. The other jacket and the winter weight Nomex you would have to beg and plead for once you got to your fleet squadron.

After wings, I had about an eight month wait for my flight class to start at the Replacement Air Group (RAG). In the interim, many of us lieutenants were sent out to be "safety observers" in the hot refueling pits in MCAS Cherry Point. It was mighty cold that winter and there was no possibility of getting a winter weight Nomex as these were in short supply. Some of the more inventive gents combed the local surplus shops for winter flight jackets that had been "DRMOed"...or sold for surplus. But most of the jackets available had seen some hard wear, had knits that were worn or torn, and had clearly been sewn several times in the seams.

For those that were willing to travel farther afield, say to Seymore Johnson AFB located perhaps an hour or so away, the pickings were decidedly better. The jackets had been worn clearly, but were in much better shape. It seemed that the Air Force had a different standard of unserviceable than the Marines.

These standards have undoubtedly wandered over the years depending on the money allotted to the services. In lean times or during a big plus up, supplies must have been quite thin and crews made do with the gear that they had. Also, wartime always seems to wear the spit and polish off a peacetime military. Whether it is the increased wear and replacement of equipment or just that scuffed boots seem increasingly trivial when pilots aren't returning from missions, that slap dash, devil may care quality of flight jackets always seems to hew closely to the wartime military.

One last thing that you might find interesting. In relatively recent years, at least the G-1 jackets have become a closely guarded asset. They are, as I think I've said, mostly issued directly from Pensacola and do not live in great stocks around the squadron flight equipment shops. The last time I went to Pensacola, I stopped in to the issue point and chewed the fat with one of the issuers of the jackets. What he said was surprising to me. In the case of the G-1 alone, all surplus jackets are destroyed and not sold off as scrap.

This usually involves cutting off the windflap or otherwise making the jacket not worth stealing/hoarding and, if it doesn't get donated to the survival guys or the museum for use as a display, it is discarded entirely.

I guess, because of their perceived value and the desire that the jackets be kept relatively exclusive to naval aviators and aircrew, the jackets are never DRMOed and sold to the public.

Isn't that a shame though the jackets aren't what they used to be.

Many thanks for that post Deacon. I find this sort of thing really interesting and not the least, informative.

I suppose that couple of G-1s of yours aren't getting much use at the moment with summer in the States

 

[Deacon211]

I know and it vexes me greatly!

That's to say nothing of my Irvin which I got late last spring and have only worn in the air conditioning.