A tale of two jackets

[Carlos840]

At 2.3x the price, though? I guess there's people for whom the accuracy matters that much, but from a general quality standpoint is there really that much separating the two makers? I get that RMC is a lot more expensive to begin with, and there's a lot fewer of them around. Is that all there is to it?

I'm skeptical, but curious to hear opinions of people who have handled/owned both.

I haven't handled an Aero A2, but have handled quite a few other Aeros, and a few RMC, and IMO there is a noticeable difference if you know what to look for, and care for the details.
The Aeros are very well made, both my Bootleggers are pretty much perfect, but they are rougher around the edges if you really get into it. Stitching isn't laser straight, the machines/needles used leave very big stitch holes, and have a lower stitch per inch count.
The RMC i have handled all had stitching comparable to my Freewheelers, it looked perfect.
Everything was perfectly straight, small stitch holes, higher stitch count.
It's not a night and day difference, but when held side by side the Aero is more "agricultural", the the RMC more distinguished and polished.
They also use Shinki which will always be a selling point.
Now that doesn't mean the difference is worth double the price to most people, i am pretty sure most people wouldn't even spot the difference. But if you do, it might be worth it to you!

 

[Dr H]

At 2.3x the price, though? I guess there's people for whom the accuracy matters that much, but from a general quality standpoint is there really that much separating the two makers? I get that RMC is a lot more expensive to begin with, and there's a lot fewer of them around. Is that all there is to it?

I'm skeptical, but curious to hear opinions of people who have handled/owned both.

I’ve handled both, and owned many (probably too many) A-1s from high end makers. So I’d still say yes, as the stitchwork in terms of stitchcount and fine seams (which is generally near faultless with Japanese manufacturers), and pattern matter to me. But, as you say, to each their own (YMMV).

 

[Dr H]

I haven't handled an Aero A2, but have handled quite a few other Aeros, and a few RMC, and IMO there is a noticeable difference if you know what to look for, and care for the details.
The Aeros are very well made, both my Bootleggers are pretty much perfect, but they are rougher around the edges if you really get into it. Stitching isn't laser straight, the machines/needles used leave very big stitch holes, and have a lower stitch per inch count.
The RMC i have handled all had stitching comparable to my Freewheelers, it looked perfect.
Everything was perfectly straight, small stitch holes, higher stitch count.
It's not a night and day difference, but when held side by side the Aero is more "agricultural", the the RMC more dinstinguihed and polished.
They also use Shinki which will always be a selling point.
Now that doesn't mean the difference is worth double the price to most people, i am pretty sure most people wouldn't even spot the difference. But if you do, it might be worth it to you!

Very well put, precisely what I had in mind...

 

[ton312]

One thing about auctions...they do tend to find an items true value (if they aren't tampered with). I know when I would bid, especially if I really wanted something, I'd go far beyond what I thought the item was actually worth. "What's it worth to you" can be a hard question to answer. And as Terry said, you really are only competing with yourself. The comfort level to value ratio is hard to pinpoint, and there's a million reasons why something is and is not worth the money.

 

[Edward]

All done and said, you can't always impose logic on these things. It's certainly true that certain factors - apparent rarity, a perception that 'Jackets from X cost Y, therefore they're worth Y', certain popular components... I'd agree that Shinki can push up a price: to some folks, it's worth far more if it's made from Shinki. I like Shinki, though I like several other hides just as well and I wouldn't pay more for it, but to someone who prefers Shinki, then it's obvious that's going to encourage them to bid, perhaps higher. Ultimately, though, when it comes to ebay auctions an awful lot is luck of the draw - all you need are to or more folks who are keen on the jacket you're selling to both find it and convince themselves that it's "their" jacket (a fatal mistake for your wallet - once you start feeling like you own anything on eBay til the final whistle, you're much more likely to go into a bidding frenzy and fork out more than you wanted). Fantastic for the seller, less so for the buyer that bids before they think. It wouldn't be the first time I saw a used jacket sell for far more than the new price just because two people fixated on it and didn't think to shop around...

Lost a bid by 2 seconds and $10. I think at that point it may have something to do with how fast your internet connection is. It's cool, I set my top price, got outbid, and saved a bundle.

Either put the bid in or snipe it, and forget about it. It's the only way. Yeah, that other guy won by ten bucks, but if you'd had the chance to bid again, would ten bucks have won it? Or had he bid another hundred? Would you have kept bidding 'just ten more, it's only ten more dollars' til suddenly you win and it's not the bargain you had hoped for? (No you personally, speaking generally - you / one)? That's how I try to look at it. That and in all my time on eBay, using it since 2002, the one thing I have learned above all else is that no matter what the sellers may claim, there is *nothing* unique on there.

I had a couple of cheeky bids on one of the Goodwears, couldn't resist, soundly beaten though.
Edit
Thinking about it, I don't think I've ever won anything in an auction, not sure why I bother. Lol

It's the fun of it, isn't it? there's always that vague chance that nobody else spots a badly listed item and you end up with a real bargain. It's almost like the lottery - except you're not out the ticket price if you lose. That said, I've never been in a position where I couldn't resist putting £100 I didn't *really* have that month on the lottery because that would be such a steal if I won, and then hoping that I did get outbid because I'd be in troubled at home.... I do have a beautiful bass guitar in my office that cost me only a fraction of its value and which I never expected to win (fortunately I had the money!)

 

[Superfluous]

At 2.3x the price, though? I guess there's people for whom the accuracy matters that much, but from a general quality standpoint is there really that much separating the two makers? I get that RMC is a lot more expensive to begin with, and there's a lot fewer of them around. Is that all there is to it?

I'm skeptical, but curious to hear opinions of people who have handled/owned both.

Guppy,

I applaud your desire to stimulate interesting discussion and thought provoking debate. However, this is not a neutral forum when it comes to certain manufacturers and palpable biases render such discussions fraught with peril. Criticism of certain brands is frequently met with a wave of harsh disapproval. Thus, I try to avoid the comparisons you are urging.

Based on the foregoing, I will be intentionally brief and vague. I have endless respect for the Aero company and the people behind it. Ken is an icon and his staff is stellar. I have owned two Aero jackets. I have also owned three RMC jackets. I have critically examined and compared both brands. I no longer own either of the Aero jackets, and I have no plans to purchase any further Aero jackets. IMHO, the difference in quality is material and justifies the delta in cost. For me, the three biggest areas of differentiation are stitching (stitch count, top stitching, stitch precision and stitch holes), seam construction and leather (I prefer RMC's Shinki and deer). Using your comparison, I would pay 2.3x more for an RMC jacket every day of the week. To be clear, this is only my personal, subjective opinion.

It should be noted that the RMC comparison jacket cited above is made from deer, which is generally more expensive than HH. Therefore, the comparison is not apples to apples.

Lastly, as I have previously posted, I firmly believe that the question you have posed is fundamentally flawed. We are discussing luxury products that far exceed the point of diminishing returns. Would I prefer one Ferrari or four BMWs? One Ferrari every day of the week. Would I prefer one Jaeger LeCoultre or four Omegas? One Jaeger LeCoultre every day of the week. I am not suggesting that a Ferrari is for times better than a BMW, or that a Jaeger LeCoultre is four times better than an Omega. On the other hand, I do strongly believe that a Ferrari is better than a BMW, and a Jaeger LeCoultre is better than an Omega. I am willing to pay more for certain products even if the incremental cost does not translate to an equal increase in quality. When you exceed the point of diminishing returns, the equation ceases to be linear. If one demands a linear tracking of price and quality, one will never purchase an Aero, BMW or Omega, let alone a Ferrari. When discussing luxury products of this nature, the question is whether the incremental increase in quality warrants the incremental increase in price, regardless of whether the price to quality ratio is linear. Stating the obvious, this is a wildly subjective assessment and there is no correct answer. I personally believe that the incremental cost of an RMC jacket is warranted by the increase in quality. That said, I fully recognize that I am paying 50% more for less than a 50% increase in quality. That is the nature of the game for all luxury products. The overwhelming majority of the jackets we discuss here far exceed the point of diminishing returns and, for 99% of the planet, we here are insane for spending these amounts on leather jackets given the lessor expensive options that offer far, far better value. Whether we purchase Aero or RMC jackets, we must abandon the notion of maximizing value and bang for the buck. At these levels, we are guided by our hearts rather than any notion of objective value.

 

[Superfluous]

I haven't handled an Aero A2, but have handled quite a few other Aeros, and a few RMC, and IMO there is a noticeable difference if you know what to look for, and care for the details.
The Aeros are very well made, both my Bootleggers are pretty much perfect, but they are rougher around the edges if you really get into it. Stitching isn't laser straight, the machines/needles used leave very big stitch holes, and have a lower stitch per inch count.
The RMC i have handled all had stitching comparable to my Freewheelers, it looked perfect.
Everything was perfectly straight, small stitch holes, higher stitch count.
It's not a night and day difference, but when held side by side the Aero is more "agricultural", the the RMC more dinstinguihed and polished.
They also use Shinki which will always be a selling point.
Now that doesn't mean the difference is worth double the price to most people, i am pretty sure most people wouldn't even spot the difference. But if you do, it might be worth it to you!

^ This!

 

[Monitor]

However, this is not a neutral forum when it comes to certain manufacturers and palpable biases render such discussions fraught with peril. Criticism of certain brands is frequently met with a wave of harsh disapproval. Thus, I try to avoid the comparisons you are urging

Great post altogether but regarding your observation that this isn't a neutral forum, I just don't find this to be the case. While we've got some people here who are more vocal in defense of one brand, or criticism of another - which is the same as on any other forum - I really don't think there's any true bias on TFL. Criticism of certain brands exists, happens each time someone brings up Schott, for example but avoiding the discussion altogether won't do anyone any good.

For example, I was completely biased against certain makers but thanks to you and Dude, this has changed. Being vocal about your opinions is important on a forum otherwise it becomes... Well, VLJ.

 

[Harris HTM]

If one demands a linear tracking of price and quality, one will never purchase an Aero, BMW or Omega

Absolutely. I recently bought me a Wested Raiders. It cost me 4 times less than the cheapest of my 5 Aero's. Is it 4 times worse than my Aero's? Absolutely not. Would I pay again 4 times more for an Aero? Oh yes, if I had the budget.

 

[Superfluous]

Great post altogether but regarding your observation that this isn't a neutral forum, I just don't find this to be the case. While we've got some people here who are more vocal in defense of one brand, or criticism of another - which is the same as on any other forum - I really don't think there's any true bias on TFL. Criticism of certain brands exists, happens each time someone brings up Schott, for example but avoiding the discussion altogether won't do anyone any good.

For example, I was completely biased against certain makers but thanks to you and Dude, this has changed. Being vocal about your opinions is important on a forum otherwise it becomes... Well, VLJ.

Point taken. So far, the above-discussion is consistent with your observation. Very respectful comments devoid of pejorative connotations. I hope it continues that way.

 

[Guppy]

I have no intention of starting (or restarting) any brand wars here.

I've only ever seen good things said here about RMC and Aero. I know very little about RMC, other than they have a very good reputation. I don't know all that much about super high end luxury items to begin with, which is why I asked for more information/opinions to help me understand what I saw in the action on those auctions last night. I would have expected the two to be closer, perhaps a $300 difference between the two wouldn't have surprised me enough to ask about it, but an $800 differential did. Obviously a few people wanted the RMC that much, and thus the price went to where it went.

Luxury and quality are related, if different things, and are relative. I generally appreciate quality, but especially when the cost is low enough to create a great value. (Value = Quality / Cost). I wouldn't say anything about RMC to disparage it in terms of value -- how could I, having never handled one? But I think it is good to ask the questions and learn. And so far I don't think anyone's gotten bent out of shape about it. Perhaps elsewhere, and at other times this has happened. But I'm glad for the information that I've received today.

 

[Carlos840]

Point taken. So far, the above-discussion is consistent with your observation. Very respectful comments devoid of pejorative connotations. I hope it continues that way.

I agree with you that there was a time where this forum sometimes felt like an Aero cult...
Aero could do no wrong and they were then be all end all of leather jackets on this forum.
Just as we have moved on from the times where A2s where the most discussed jackets around here, we have moved on from the Aero idolation!

There are too many brands ou there to limit yourself to a single one.
I think this has been a great move forward for TFL, things have been more varied in the last couple years and a lot more interresting than they used to be.

 

[Dr H]

I really don't think there's any true bias on TFL.

Can’t agree I’m afraid Monitor, my experience has been quite the opposite at times.
I rarely engage in a discussion of certain brands these days.

 

[Dr H]

I agree with you that there was a time where this forum sometimes felt like an Aero cult...

Still does at times, but hey ho...

 

[ton312]

I'm still a card carrying Aero cult member!

 

[Dr H]

Don’t stress, I’ll still speak with you, but...if you’re admitting to being part of a cult then you can’t truly be part of it

 

[JMax]

Point taken. So far, the above-discussion is consistent with your observation. Very respectful comments devoid of pejorative connotations. I hope it continues that way.

RMC sucks!!

Could not resist. I agree that most around here look at value differently, probably insanely. And that within this insanity we should be free to apply importance to stitch count, or in my case, weight and comfort while sitting on a motorcycle with my arms halfway up to the sky, in order to justify to ourselves the price tags we repeatedly are willing to pay. Like I have said before, I am glad that Freewheelers, RMC, etc. are not readily available for me to try on. If so, they would be in my stable, especially as I start to look at/for less specialized jackets than the ones I currently own.

 

[Carlos840]

I'm still a card carrying Aero cult member!
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That tan cafe racer is still my favourite.
I hope you see it again somewhere and buy it back!

 

[steve u]

There are too many brands ou there to limit yourself to a single one.
I think this has been a great move forward for TFL, things have been more varied in the last couple years and a lot more interresting than they used to be.

I couldn't agree MORE...Now Carlos840 could you explain the "not one only limit" to my Wife please. steve

 

[ton312]

For me the quality/value relationship is broken down in three simple caregories. Hide (weight/thickness/type), custom options (liner/color/hardware) and fit options (+/- inches). Personally, I am not impressed with lightweight leather. I tried a Shinki halfbelt, perfectly sewn together, weighed less than 4lbs, very little character. Hard pass. Tried several Canadian made jackets, sewn together ok, wonky fit, priced above construction and fit presentation, hard pass.
Tried Greek CR. Perfect stitch, perfect fit, lightweight. Sold.

Point is value is assigned by the buyer. We all have our own very specific set of attributes that then become "worth" the money. Make no mistake. We are all suckers in this game. In my mind there is no clear delta that defines quality. It's simply something assigned by the sucker willing to pay for it. I know which side my bread is buttered and I happily fork it over for just that.