A persons word is their bond

[NWL]

Just an observation, as much as I utilize the internet for finding those hard to find items and resources that bring me joy, with age I am starting to feel that the internet and the anonymity and perceived distance that it gives people , is leading to the decline of the " My word is my bond " era.

In life and day to day business dealings, if I make a commitment I stick to it. If I make a promise I uphold it. The percentage of individuals that reciprocate this same ideology seems to be on the decline, it is too easy in these times to think that you will never cross paths with an individual again and therefore why bother putting the extra effort in to seal the deal.

I recently purchased a couple of fedoras through online auctions and two different sellers, paid top dollar for them and being that I am from Canada paid dearly on the freight and brokerage to get them across the border. Both deals went well, items as described or better than described. The difference in the transactions, one vendor didn't promise anything and yet excelled in customer care and satisfaction while the other vendor , although professional, promised a slight refund that never did transpire. It's a little thing but with time on my hands today, it made me look inward and will serve as a reminder to always strive to maintain the " My word is my bond " commitment to those I encounter in this small world.

Cheers,
NWL

 

[Fading Fast]

If there is one thing my moral but slightly crazy father taught me, it is that your word is you bond. He was a professional gambler and (pretty sure) bookmaker and while many may look down on that, from my perspective, his was a very moral world where a handshake was better than a signed contract and your reputation was who your were. A handshake was a sacred thing in his world.

He never cheated, lied or stole - but basically lived in an illegal world at some level - but, IMHO, was a man of integrity and morality. His friends and customers where the same his entire life. When he died, I can't count the number of people who told me a handshake with your father was the same as money in the bank. I still live by that code, but have found only a few others who do. Interestingly, while I don't know as I have no experience to defend this position, I bet a lot of Fedora Lounge members also live by that code.

Something broke in our society when that code died or maybe our society broke first and killed the code. Perhaps it never existed, writ large, but the small world I grew up in knew and lived by that code or your were expelled from the community if you didn't. Our world would be a better place if that meme - your word is your bond - was a dominant one today.

 

[tonyb]

^^^^^
FF points to something of which those who have never operated in the quasi- if not outright illegal world are unaware: when your business associates have no legal recourse, your dealings had better be "straight," provided you wish to continue operating in that world. Reputation is everything.

As to the internet's effect on honorable dealings ... A person can do serious damage to a person's or a business's reputation in a matter of seconds. You may never meet face to face, but people all over the world can come away with an unfavorable view based on one dissatisfied customer's online posting. It's hard to hide these days, and it's getting harder. Even a person with online search skills as rudimentary as mine can learn a great deal about a person without leaving the comfort of his easy chair.

 

[belfastboy]

I am a big fan of online purchases. As Tony states above the vendor's history is right there for all to see. I know more about an online vendor than I do from most bricks and mortar sellers. I prefer to deal in person but that is not often an option and with online sales I can shop the world. I have well over 500 online purchases in the last 15 years and have had about 2 or 3 unsatisfactory experiences but they were monetarily corrected either by the vendor or by Ebay.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I used to think "word is your bond" was the rule in the small town I grew up in, but I had my thinking corrected pretty fast when I took over the bookkeeping for the family gas station when I was 15. When I got a look at the "accounts receivable" drawer, the first thing I saw was hundreds of unpaid bills dating back to the late 1940s, many of them incurred by Prominent People In Town, including a number of wealthy summer complaints, several selectmen, a couple of town managers, and the principal of my high school.

The conclusion I had to draw from this was that "word is your bond" worked only if you were willing to be an SOB about collecting from those who could afford to pay but didn't want to bother. Unfortunately, my grandfather was not an SOB.

As for the present day, I've been a member of eBay since 1998, and have been stung exactly three times out of maybe 2000 transactions, mostly involving the purchase of books, magazines, newspapers, 78rpm records, and ephemera. I don't know much about the vintage clothing field, but antiquarian booksellers seem to be almost universally honest folk.

 

[GHT]

Your word is your bond is, more or less, a euphemism for your honesty and integrity. As Lizzie has described, it's often so called pillars of the community, those who hide behind rank and pomposity, they are the ones for whom: Your word is your bond means, look after number one. Hard working folk, those who toil and struggle to keep afloat, those who do their best to raise their kids to be good, honest citizens, they are the trustworthy.
Whenever I have bought off the internet I have first spoken to the vendor on the phone, it establishes a trust. Take, for example, Esther Weis. I contacted her through The Lounge, we exchanged a couple of pm's, I then arranged to call her. It was that call that put me at ease, and I guess Esther too. Having spoken to her I then passed her over to my wife, Tina, for a quick chat. This established my honest intention, relaxed both Tina & Esther and quickly got the ball rolling on my purchase and her payment, although our respective Post Offices went out of their way annoy us. I did the same when I bought The Stetson from The Village Hat Shop in San Diego. Maybe I'm a naturally suspicious person which is why I prefer contact before purchase.

 

[Fading Fast]

My Ebay experiences - and we buy a lot on Ebay (with some effort, you can buy many new and vintage things at well-less-than-half the price of a retailer) - have been 99%+ very, very good and for the few times they haven't been, I've either eaten it as it was too small (say $20 or less) and too grey (not quite as described but close) to raise a dispute or - for the very few times the item was clearly not as described - I've been fully rebated by the seller or Ebay.

I also buy a lot of old books (old, not particularly "collectable") and have found - like Lizzie - book dealers to be incredibly honest and just outright nice people (they bring balance to a universe that includes NYC real estate brokers) - funny how different fields take on such personality and characteristics.

As to my Dad's world - Tony B is spot on as there is no court to go to in the not-legal world (at the time) of gambling. Also, my Dad and his world was not mob or mob like, they worked on reputation and "ate" losses if someone didn't pay - but that person found themselves out of the community. It was a small community of people that had grown up together, struggled together and survived together - I don't think it is "scalable" or even "re-create-able;" it is just something that developed based a unique set of facts and circumstances.

 

[MisterCairo]

I've had overwhelmingly positive experiences buying online. As Lizzie notes, antiquarian booksellers are universally excellent (so far...). It is so easy to ping someone with a negative review, most sellers work to ensure a good experience.

 

[tonyb]

Well, FF, maybe we've opened a can of worms. C'est la vie, as we say in the trailer park.

While I'm not here to advocate for illegality, I find myself frustrated and angered by the misconceptions about that world and those who populate it.

Bankruptcy is legal, and in many cases that's how it should be. But in all bankruptcies someone (several someones, usually) are getting stiffed. And if such losses are a cost of doing business, that cost is passed along to those who do pay their bills.

People who use bankruptcy as a business strategy (I've known such people, sad to say) are just plain crooked, no matter the legality of the practice. They push the consequences of their recklessness off on others, but they get all high and mighty if anyone suggests their gains ought be spread around a bit more equitably.

I have such characters in my family. Multiple bankruptcies. It's their MO. It disgusts me. I'd rather pal around with a numbers runner. Or a state legislator.

 

[Fading Fast]

^^^ Having grown up in my world, morality and legality were two entirely separate concepts. Gambling was moral; whereas, bankruptcy was not (those were the views I was taught growing up - today, I do, like you, see a legitimate place for bankruptcy, but also like you, not as a strategy to game the system).

Cheating on a bet was immoral; making one was a personal choice that the government had no business telling you that you couldn't - that was the code. What cracks me up today is that the government has legalized and monopolized what was "the numbers" racket / they just call it the lottery. And the government runs a much worse game as they take more per dollar than the old fashion bookies (don't have the facts on hand, but have read several accounts over the years that the bookies skimmed less per dollar than the gov't does); hence, the gov't payout are lower.

Also, and this drives me nuts, the gov't lies in its advertising as its "$200 million payouts" are over twenty years and taxed (right back to the gov't). Hence, back-of-the-envelope analysis is that you get about a third or, in our example, $66.6 million, if you take the lump sum upfront. Still a lot of money, but not the falsely advertised $200 million.

While everyone hates Wall Street, Wall Street is not allowed and does not advertise its returns at anywhere near that level of deception as the gov't regulators would put those who do in jail, but the gov't seems fine when it deceives the public (I mean advertises) that way.

Last point on the morality of gambling - now that the gov't is a bookie, many seem to ignore that lotteries are, effectively, voluntary but horrifically regressive taxes - where are the liberals who hate Wall Street, the 1%, income inequality on this one? Are they mainly silent because the bullying entity would not be the hated "Kepitalists" or business, but the government itself.

For the record, I am fine with gambling and fine with lotteries, etc., but they should be competitive so that the players could get the best payout.

 

[Bamaboots]

I've had a 99% positive experience, buying and selling on eBay. I made a few mistakes buying and chalked it up as a learning experience. I had never had anyone try to return anything until a couple of months ago when I sold a pair of custom, hand made, full kangaroo cowboy boots. The boots were in like new condition without any flaws.

A few days after the buyer received them I got a return notification stating the buyer was returning them because they were not as described. He claimed the leather was goat. I've been wearing, collecting and selling boots for years and I don't know everything about leather, but I know the difference between goat and kangaroo. eBay's return policy is very liberal towards the buyer and I understand that to a degree. I was angered and frustrated because this buyer was essentially calling me a liar.

I started off by sending the buyer emails about knowing how to identify the leather. No response. I then started contacting the bay about contesting the return. No response. I then contaced the bookmaker, T. O. Stanley about the boots. Thank goodness I had kept the photos of the style and model numbers of the boots, both on the box and inside the boot. I forwarded the emails I received from Mr. Stanley stating the boots were indeed kangaroo to both the buyer and eBay. No response from either.

After about five days of this I sent the buyer an email saying eBay may force me to accept the return but I was going to do all within my power to protest and deny it. A few days later the buyer responded saying he had been in the hospital and had been unable to respond to any communication. Bu-----t. He dropped the return claim and his is the only non 5 star rating I have ever received. In the comments he wrote "OK boots." Jackass.

 

[LizzieMaine]

For the record, I am fine with gambling and fine with lotteries, etc., but they should be competitive so that the players could get the best payout.

As a regular lottery player myself -- and I've had a few hits over the years, never gigantic quit-your-job ones, but enough to feel like I've gotten something for my money -- I'd agree the system could stand to be reformed. But it's a step forward from what existed in the Era.

Few modern folk realize just how pervasive illegal gambling was in the Era -- it was literally everywhere. We even had a slot machine in the back room at the gas station. Every neighborhood candy store or newsdealer you went into had punchboards under the counter. And policy, or "the numbers" was so universally popular that newspapers in every major city -- especially Hearst tabloids like the Mirror in New York or the Record in Boston -- published comic strips or cartoons containing "hidden" tips on what numbers to bet. It's common to stereotype policy as a game most common among the African-American community -- in fact, one of its more offensive slang names in the Era was "the African Stock Exchange" -- but there were a great many white working class people who participated as well. And of course, betting on horse or dog racing was epidemic among all classes, both legally, at the tracks, and with bookies. Even the "Irish Sweepstakes," a racing-based lottery that became a craze in the US in the 1930s, supposedly as a charity game to benefit Irish hospitals, was actually a for-profit racket.

The thing with the illegal gambling of the Era was that you never knew, except by trust, if you were getting into a legitimate game or not. It was common for punchboards to be rigged, or even set up in such a way that there were were no winning slips at all, or only petty prizes, not the big payouts promised, and when you bet on policy you had to have a personal relationship of trust with the operator you bet with, because you had no recourse -- except maybe a gun -- if he welshed. And horse doping was a lot more common, especially in small-time racing, than people realized. Gambling on other sports was even worse -- corruption among players was rampant, especially in football and basketball.

Today's lotteries aren't perfect -- the adverising and marketing are sleazy, and there could be more transparency as to where the money goes. But at least you know that there's a legitimate chance of winning, that the published odds are accurate, and if you do win, that you will legitimately collect your money.

 

[Fading Fast]

So my suggestion - heresy to pure libertarians and pure socialists - legalized lotteries, let private companies compete and regulate them for corruption, etc. Government monopolies (we are not talking about municipal water service after all) are as apt to corruption / sleaziness / etc. as are private sector ones, but with the addition of self-regulation which rarely works.

Have to add, Lizzie, I'm surprised and pleased that you play the lottery. Would not have thought it your thing, but glad that you get some fun out of it as, I'll just say it, I worry sometimes that you are too serious and too practical (not that it is my business, but heck, we learn a lot about our fellow members over time).

I have been a gambler my entire life - defined as somebody who assesses risks, assigns odds and places bets or investments on future outcomes. I am very serous about it as investing and trading is my business.

That said, there is a second type of gambling - "the fun, just in it for the entertainment and can easily afford to lose what I bet" kind. I occasionally buy a lottery ticket so that my girlfriend and I can talk about what we'll do if we win (knowing full well we won't) or a few scratch tickets on vacation to "play with" having drinks before dinner. We'll also go to the race track (also gov't run / also horrible payouts and worse than when privately run) for the entertainment value (even if we lose every race, costs us less than a theater ticket or several movie tickets and we enjoy the day "at the track" more).

Glad you enjoy a little harmless gambling.

 

[tonyb]

My aversion to gambling is almost pathological. By "gambling" I mean games of chance -- and not the taking of informed risks in business.

Which is not to say I have never bought a lotto ticket or played a slot machine. But, unlike some people, I get no thrill from it, and I accept that I threw away a few bucks and entertain no fantasies that if I risk a few more I will recoup my loses. Nope, the odds are with the house. Or the state.

My wife's dad has Alzheimer's. He frequented the local tribal casino. This story has an unhappy ending, the details of which I will spare you, for my benefit as much as yours, because every recounting of it makes my blood boil.

 

[Fading Fast]

^^^ In the world I've lived in, I know more than a few people whose lives have been destroyed by gambling and respect anyone who says "not for me." That said, life offers up no small numbers of ways to mess up your life - gambling, drinking, drugs, sex, food, etc. - that as an addiction can be horribly destructive; however, done with constraint and thoughtfulness can enrich life.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Glad you enjoy a little harmless gambling.

Hey, it runs in the family. My mother taught me to play poker when I was six years old -- she and a bunch of her friends from the neighborhood used to get together on Saturday nights and play, and I'd sit in occasionally. Made some pretty good pocket money that way.

I paid for the engine rebuild for the Plodge with lottery winnings -- I tend to see them as a nice occasional windfall, not something I can count on. But when I win the Powerball I've got my plans all set -- the kids at work will never worry about anything ever again.

 

[Fading Fast]

Hey, it runs in the family. My mother taught me to play poker when I was six years old -- she and a bunch of her friends from the neighborhood used to get together on Saturday nights and play, and I'd sit in occasionally. Made some pretty good pocket money that way.

I paid for the engine rebuild for the Plodge with lottery winnings -- I tend to see them as a nice occasional windfall, not something I can count on. But when I win the Powerball I've got my plans all set -- the kids at work will never worry about anything ever again.

I am happy that you have such a great family with your kids - not easy to do amidst the vagaries of the workforce.

And my grandmother taught me to handicap horses and gamble at cards - conventional my upbringing was not.

 

[2jakes]

My aversion to gambling is almost pathological. By "gambling" I mean games of chance -- and not the taking of informed risks in business.

Which is not to say I have never bought a lotto ticket or played a slot machine. But, unlike some people, I get no thrill from it, and I accept that I threw away a few bucks and entertain no fantasies that if I risk a few more I will recoup my loses. Nope, the odds are with the house. Or the state.

My wife's dad has Alzheimer's. He frequented the local tribal casino. This story has an unhappy ending, the details of which I will spare you, for my benefit as much as yours, because every recounting of it makes my blood boil.

My sister & her husband both worked to make ends meet.
They were not too happy at times.
Husband won 10 million $$$ lotto.
After Uncle Sam took his share, I thought they still had a good bundle
& things would get better.
They were miserable.
The money is gone & they are now divorced.
Both are still working.
She is happy.

 

[Fading Fast]

My sister & her husband both worked to make ends meet.
They were not too happy at times.
Husband won 10 million $$$ lotto.
After Uncle Sam took his share, I thought they still had a good bundle
& things would get better.
They were miserable.
The money is gone & they are now divorced.
Both are still working.
She is happy.

I forget the number, but it's a crazy high number of multi-million dollar lottery winners who end up broke. At worst, assuming it was $10 million upfront, they should have gotten $5 million (and probably more); if it was $10 million over twenty years, their take might have been closer to $3 million if they took it up front.

A lot to loose, but some crazy spending and bad investing (or worse, being swindled) and it can go pretty quickly. As to your last line, I know I've read about studies on happiness and once one rises above being destitute (as destitute people are not happy), happiness does not increase noticeably with wealth. I know all the jokes that follow - "try it on me," "if money doesn't buy happiness, you're shopping in the wrong place," etc. - but the studies are pretty consistent (based on my memory, as a money manager, I've met several lottery winners and have read the studies over the years).

Very glad she's happy now.

 

[2jakes]

^^^^
Thanks.

As far as “happiness”.....
In my younger years, I worked as a “butler” (one year) in Beverly Hills for a very
super rich man. Bogart was one of his employees in earlier times.

Part of my duties was to grocery shop.
One day I bought butter at regular price.
Was reprimanded for not buying the butter at another location
that had it on sale.

There was happy & not so happy times.
Only difference, in my opinion,
was these folks were in a comfortable atmosphere doing both.


Just my 2¢ on this.