Questions About the United States Navy Peacoat

[giogio97]

It definitely appears with a bluish tint in person, less in the pics, it has also canvas(?) pocket's lining

 

[VansonRider]

Here’s the sleeve and pocket from my 1970 coat, it’s the closest I have in age to yours.

 

[JAGG]

So I just joined, specifically because of the great info on pea coats here. As expected I have a couple questions that I don’t THINK were answered earlier in the thread, though I plead guilty to not having read the whole thing.

Using Peacoats five star date and sizing guide, I decided to try a 40xl instead of the 42xl I normally wear in suits/jackets. The only 42xl I was seeing for sale were recent ones, and I missed the 44xl that was posted in this thread before I started reading (just as well). I’m 6’5”, 190 lbs, my chest is closer to 40 inch than 42 but usually need a 42 because of my shoulders. Anyway, the listing I found had lots of wrong info (80’s/90’s, wrong sleeve length, looked worn and very dirty, colors indecipherable in pic), but showed the label and had pics with a tape measure, so I took a chance. No risk considering the cheap price, figured I could at least figure out whether sizing worked before passing it on to a thrift store

I expected pewter buttons and poor condition, but surprised it had gold buttons and excellent condition. No wear. Similar label to giogio97, only one year different and also without stating type of wool. And very happy with fit, pics with sweaters on.

So first question, could buttons be original? The top two of six were moved in a bad attempt to try to increase size, those are easily moved back. The lower four of six buttons have been there long enough to be reinforced with more stitches. One of the under collar buttons is missing but the one still there also looks like it is an original attachment. Except for gold color these look just like the pewter buttons used in that time frame. But no writing on the back, should there be? So is this an officers coat, maybe a promotion or anything else to explain why it would have gold buttons?

I looked quickly for matching gold buttons on eBay but only saw the pewter version. Any hope of finding one matching gold button?

 

[Peacoat]

So I just joined, specifically because of the great info on pea coats here. As expected I have a couple questions that I don’t THINK were answered earlier in the thread, though I plead guilty to not having read the whole thing.

Using Peacoats five star date and sizing guide, I decided to try a 40xl instead of the 42xl I normally wear in suits/jackets. The only 42xl I was seeing for sale were recent ones, and I missed the 44xl that was posted in this thread before I started reading (just as well). I’m 6’5”, 190 lbs, my chest is closer to 40 inch than 42 but usually need a 42 because of my shoulders. Anyway, the listing I found had lots of wrong info (80’s/90’s, wrong sleeve length, looked worn and very dirty, colors indecipherable in pic), but showed the label and had pics with a tape measure, so I took a chance. No risk considering the cheap price, figured I could at least figure out whether sizing worked before passing it on to a thrift store

I expected pewter buttons and poor condition, but surprised it had gold buttons and excellent condition. No wear. Similar label to giogio97, only one year different and also without stating type of wool. And very happy with fit, pics with sweaters on.

So first question, could buttons be original? The top two of six were moved in a bad attempt to try to increase size, those are easily moved back. The lower four of six buttons have been there long enough to be reinforced with more stitches. One of the under collar buttons is missing but the one still there also looks like it is an original attachment. Except for gold color these look just like the pewter buttons used in that time frame. But no writing on the back, should there be? So is this an officers coat, maybe a promotion or anything else to explain why it would have gold buttons?

I looked quickly for matching gold buttons on eBay but only saw the pewter version. Any hope of finding one matching gold button?

Enlisted don't get promoted to the officer ranks. They have to go through a commissioning process, either, OCS, Academy, ROTC, or rarely outside of combat, a direct commission. But you are right, their peacoats have gold buttons, if they choose to wear a peacoat (none do). They also wear their rank on shoulder boards. Officers are also authorized to wear the bridge coat, which all of them do.

As there are no loops for shoulder boards, this was probably a chief's coat. Chief Petty Officers (E-7 through E-9) wear gold buttons on their peacoats, and they wear no rank, if they elect to wear a peacoat. Although almost all choose to wear a bridge coat, the same as officers, once they are promoted to chief petty officer.

The only source I know of for gold buttons is eBay, but they are relatively scarce.

Alternatively, if you can't find another gold button, you could remove the gold buttons and replace them with the standard black buttons; they are easy to find.

 

[JAGG]

As there are no loops for shoulder boards, this was probably a chief's coat.

The only source I know of for gold buttons is eBay, but they are relatively scarce.

Alternatively, if you can't find another gold button, you could remove the gold buttons and replace them with the standard black buttons; they are easy to find.

Great, thanks so much for answering. So unusual but historically accurate is what I was hoping to hear. Before it arrived I thought I would replace the metal buttons with plastic ones, but seeing it in person I actually quite like the gold against the midnight blue/black and will keep them.

When I did a better search on eBay I did find some more listings for buttons, but mostly for smaller sizes (apparently these gold buttons come in 3 sizes) and for some reason the sellers almost never post the size - these are one inch - aka 40 ligne, now that’s an obscure term I never heard before. There’s no rush on the hidden button so I’ll just wait until one turns up locally.

So my next question is for the correct button placement. I read through the spec sheet that was posted earlier in this thread, but unfortunately that refers to the patterns for button placement, and patterns not included.

My thought is that the top two of six buttons on this coat were moved to alter size a little, because they are a different distance from the edge, and they have been sewn through the coat into the inside unlike other buttons. But since this is the only jacket I have to compare, maybe my assumption about original button placement is incorrect?

The bottom 4 of six buttons are 6 inches in from the coat edge on both sides. But the top 2 of 6 buttons are 5-1/2 inches from the edge. Should all these buttons be the same distance from edge, or is there intentional taper on the top buttons?

 

[Peacoat]

Great, thanks so much for answering. So unusual but historically accurate is what I was hoping to hear. Before it arrived I thought I would replace the metal buttons with plastic ones, but seeing it in person I actually quite like the gold against the midnight blue/black and will keep them.

When I did a better search on eBay I did find some more listings for buttons, but mostly for smaller sizes (apparently these gold buttons come in 3 sizes) and for some reason the sellers almost never post the size - these are one inch - aka 40 ligne, now that’s an obscure term I never heard before. There’s no rush on the hidden button so I’ll just wait until one turns up locally.

So my next question is for the correct button placement. I read through the spec sheet that was posted earlier in this thread, but unfortunately that refers to the patterns for button placement, and patterns not included.

My thought is that the top two of six buttons on this coat were moved to alter size a little, because they are a different distance from the edge, and they have been sewn through the coat into the inside unlike other buttons. But since this is the only jacket I have to compare, maybe my assumption about original button placement is incorrect?
The bottom 4 of six buttons are 6 inches in from the coat edge on both sides. But the top 2 of 6 buttons are 5-1/2 inches from the edge. Should all these buttons be the same distance from edge, or is there intentional taper on the top buttons?

If the button that is missing isn't visible, then no rush to get a replacement. But it would be wise to get a few extra in case other of your buttons go missing. My theory of replacement parts is that it may be available today when I don't need it, but if I wait until I need it, it won't be available. Get it now. And yes, those are 1" (40 Ligne) buttons.

All the buttons should be the same distance from the edge. My size 42 peacoat has the buttons 6.25" from the edge measured from the center of the button.

All of your questions show you are on the right track.

 

[JAGG]

If the button that is missing isn't visible, then no rush to get a replacement. But it would be wise to get a few extra in case other of your buttons go missing. My theory of replacement parts is that it may be available today when I don't need it, but if I wait until I need it, it won't be available. Get it now. And yes, those are 1" (40 Ligne) buttons.

All the buttons should be the same distance from the edge. My size 42 peacoat has the buttons 6.25" from the edge measured from the center of the button.

All of your questions show you are on the right track.

Thanks again, that was very helpful. I asked one of the eBay sellers to measure the buttons they have for sale, hopefully they will answer.

Now one last question about Peacoat button placement. I would have guessed that the inside button would have been placed exactly underneath the middle button on that side. But the one on my jacket is not, about a half inch below and out from the external one. My jacket seems to button up and close correctly, but since I need to move a couple buttons anyway, I may as well get that one correct if it needs it.

Was this another attempt by PO to adjust the size, and if so have you found a formula for correct placement of the interior button relative to the external one?

 

[Peacoat]

Thanks again, that was very helpful. I asked one of the eBay sellers to measure the buttons they have for sale, hopefully they will answer.

Now one last question about Peacoat button placement. I would have guessed that the inside button would have been placed exactly underneath the middle button on that side. But the one on my jacket is not, about a half inch below and out from the external one. My jacket seems to button up and close correctly, but since I need to move a couple buttons anyway, I may as well get that one correct if it needs it.

Was this another attempt by PO to adjust the size, and if so have you found a formula for correct placement of the interior button relative to the external one?

The actual purpose of the interior button is a mystery not known to me. I have heard a theory or two, but none sounds persuasive.

The interior button can't be " . . . placed exactly underneath the middle button on that side." During sewing the buttons would be on top of each other and would interfere with the attachment. Plus, the exterior buttons are sewn on before the liner is installed, and the interior button is attached post lining installation.

When I get a chance, I will take a look at one of my peacoats that has the interior button (they all don't have them) and see where it it placed.

 

[thebristolbloke]

Hi All,

I joined this forum because of the Pea Coat thread, I actually was looking for information on one I already had (and thought was Navy issued) but was educated on that!

I have a genuine coat coming from Ebay, is anyone able to help identify the date from the contract number in the picture?

I believe the contract number is "N140-62236S-255688" (the last number is cut off by the stitching).

Anyone have any ideas?


I was trying to find out more about the Pea Coat I already have. Unfortunately its label is exactly the same as the one listed in thread pics of "phony peacoats".

I've been able to find out that it was made by the Fidelity Company of Boston, and the designers were the owners Gerald and Stewart. I've not been able to find anything else but it is a well made coat and i'll be sorry to see it go. It's a little large for me so I was looking to get it tailored, now that I know it's not genuine am going to not bother.

I wondered if anyone knew of any further resources on that coat? The web searches am doing aren't finding a lot.

Many thanks in advance!

Phil

 

[Peacoat]

Hi All,

I joined this forum because of the Pea Coat thread, I actually was looking for information on one I already had (and thought was Navy issued) but was educated on that!

I have a genuine coat coming from Ebay, is anyone able to help identify the date from the contract number in the picture?

View attachment 656566

I believe the contract number is "N140-62236S-255688" (the last number is cut off by the stitching).

Anyone have any ideas?


I was trying to find out more about the Pea Coat I already have. Unfortunately its label is exactly the same as the one listed in thread pics of "phony peacoats".

I've been able to find out that it was made by the Fidelity Company of Boston, and the designers were the owners Gerald and Stewart. I've not been able to find anything else but it is a well made coat and i'll be sorry to see it go. It's a little large for me so I was looking to get it tailored, now that I know it's not genuine am going to not bother.

I wondered if anyone knew of any further resources on that coat? The web searches am doing aren't finding a lot.

Many thanks in advance!

Phil

You have a 1949 peacoat. The finish on these coats is a little nicer than the coats of other years.

 

[spoonbelly1950]

Wow, what a coincidence. I just had Peacoat confirm a peacoat for me which is also a '49 with the same contract number as yours. . Your coat is a real U.S. Navy Peacoat, and one of the best years for post war Kersey wool coats. I have a '49 also in size 46.

 

[JAGG]

So I posted pics of my 1967 Peacoat a couple weeks ago, and really appreciate the help I got. I have found another, older, peacoat that I’ll post about, but first wanted to ask another question about the 1967 one.

It is clearly marked 40xl, but when I measure it in the way described (flat, buttoned, pulled then allowed to relax, taken at arm seam) it is 22-1/2 inches. Which I think should make it more of a 42, not a 40 in size? Do I have that right? The arms are 27 inch, which is what I expect for an XL.

So is this just natural variation, and if tag wasn’t present what size would it be called?

Also, no luck on the 40 ligne gold buttons. I tried a nearby army/navy store where I was holding out hope, but they had only plastic buttons, so I’ll keep looking. The good news is that it was looking for buttons that found me another Peacoat on eBay, and this one is older…

 

[thebristolbloke]

My 1949 Pea Coat arrived!! It's in a little rougher shape that the seller advertised but it fits like a dream (size 40). Originally I was going to get the Fidelity Pea Coat I have resized at a tailors (size 52), its still a good coat but repairs are hopefully going to be more cost effective than a complete resize and shape.

Will post some pics for comments tomorrow

Phil

 

[Peacoat]

So I posted pics of my 1967 Peacoat a couple weeks ago, and really appreciate the help I got. I have found another, older, peacoat that I’ll post about, but first wanted to ask another question about the 1967 one.

It is clearly marked 40xl, but when I measure it in the way described (flat, buttoned, pulled then allowed to relax, taken at arm seam) it is 22-1/2 inches. Which I think should make it more of a 42, not a 40 in size? Do I have that right? The arms are 27 inch, which is what I expect for an XL.

So is this just natural variation, and if tag wasn’t present what size would it be called?

Also, no luck on the 40 ligne gold buttons. I tried a nearby army/navy store where I was holding out hope, but they had only plastic buttons, so I’ll keep looking. The good news is that it was looking for buttons that found me another Peacoat on eBay, and this one is older…

22.5 is consistent with a size 42 peacoat. The standard measurement for a size 42 peacoat is 22.25".

 

[JAGG]

22.5 is consistent with a size 42 peacoat. The standard measurement for a size 42 peacoat is 22.25".

Great, thank you.

The other coat I just bought is a similar size, but unfortunately (for me) shorter length. Here are the pics. Would this also be a 42, and approximate year?

 

[Peacoat]

Yes, this is also a size 42. It is a postwar coat at 1946 or 1947.

 

[JAGG]

Yes, this is also a size 42. It is a postwar coat at 1946 or 1947.

Thank you. And sorry, I should have included a better pic of full jacket. The pic I included showed buttons, but was too dark. From the dating guide you wrote, wouldn’t this be war period or before? Or did I misunderstand your writing.

Next question, there is no collar latch or buttons. Were these removed, or possibly correct without them? And if there should be a cloth collar latch, is there anywhere to find an original or reproduction? I know the little plastic buttons are easy to find, they had a bunch at my local army/navy store.

 

[Peacoat]

I have made mistakes a few times, but I have never been wrong. My mistake in this case was in not asking you for better pictures of your coat.

Now that you have provided better pictures, and that I have reevaluated the improved quality pictures and the tag in conjunction with the pictures, I can state with a fair degree of peacoat certainty that this is a mid to late 30s peacoat.

So, as you can see, I wasn't wrong; I just made a mistake. And I attribute that mistake to you as I seldom make mistakes.

If your coat has no throat latch, nor buttons for them, we can assume it was made without the throat latch,. I mean that was well over 80 years ago. No telling what features were included back then.

 

[JAGG]

I have made mistakes a few times, but I have never been wrong. My mistake in this case was in not asking you for better pictures of your coat.

Now that you have provided better pictures, and that I have reevaluated the improved quality pictures and the tag in conjunction with the pictures, I can state with a fair degree of peacoat certainty that this is a mid to late 30s peacoat.

So, as you can see, I wasn't wrong; I just made a mistake. And I attribute that mistake to you as I seldom make mistakes.

If your coat has no throat latch, nor buttons for them, we can assume it was made without the throat latch,. I mean that was well over 80 years ago. No telling what features were included back then.

Hey, you wrote the book, of course you are infallible. After all, this is the Peacoat religion, isn’t it?

So that was a surprise, I assumed this would be a ww2 issue coat and not earlier. When I looked at the collar again, I do see that it is quite a bit narrower than ww2 collars. Is this part of why you concluded it is pre ww2 issue? Anyway, the narrowness may explain why no throat latch needed, so this might be a part of pre war ID. Anyway, glad I don’t need to search for a latch I would never use anyway. Included is pic of collar up close showing size difference.

 

[JAGG]

And one more question for now. This old coat is in excellent condition, except all the button holes on one side are blown out. No fabric tears, but stitching around holes gone. The unused sides button holes are all perfect (no surprise). Is this a repair that a seamstress/tailor can make, if so is it done by machine (cheap and quick) or done by hand (time consuming to do all five holes)?